Changing the minds of peers on week 1

[DaveEV]

Um.... I've seen the Nissan documents posted to this forum. They expected the battery would lose 20-30% of its capacity early on, and then hold at that value. (Also I never said "we" in my original post.)

I have not seen any documents that state that battery capacity will hold any value or lose 20-30% early on (unless you're in Phoenix).

Yes, capacity loss is fastest/greatest the newer the battery is and rate of capacity loss slows down, but it never stops.

 

[MarvGordon]

Just tell these luddites you don't want to support terror organizations buy purchasing Saudi oil (gas)! ... and then start a USA USA USA chant...... that always gets their attention...

My area (Lansing/Mason Michigan) is full of republicans, conservatives, and 'country folk'. Almost everyone I know around here owns a hunting rifle or gun; 60% of the guys I work with are avid hunters & fishermen. Lots of pick-ups, mustangs, and suv's.

I got my 2013 SV tuesday and it has attracted alot of attention from everyone I come into contact with. People have felt the need to drop by my office all week and make comments like 'so I hear you bought a tree hugging mobile huh?' and 'what are you doing? isnt that un-american to buy a forigen car and not buy gas (sarcasim)?' Some people have also expressed how unfair they think it is that I get a 7500 tax credit to 'subsidize my car' and since I am not buying gas that I am not paying my fair share in taxes for the roads. I anticipated such comments; I just laugh at their jokes and listen to their concerns and not take them personally.

Once I let them tell their jokes or voice their concerns I remind them that I am the same guy that I was last week who drove a 2003 Ford Taurus. I dont really bother addressing thier comments directly; I really dont have to. I explain to them why I bought the car. I tell them I got it because A) I wanted a new car B) EV's cost less per mile to drive than ICE's. I tell them it was mostly an economic decision - the car almost pays for itself in fuel savings. I could have found 'normal' cars at the samy car paymet but I remind them I would also have at least $100 in gas a month to pay for

I tell everyone the story about how the dealership where I purchased my Leaf is 68 miles away. Because I was going to turn my old Taurus in I did not fill it up on Monday like I normally do; when it came time to drive to the dealership on tuesday my low fuel light turned on. So, knowing my car gets 20-25mpg highway I put 3 gallons of gas in costing me $10.80. I then inform them that I drove the Leaf 68miles home in less than 1 charge and to charge it back to full that it night it cost about $2.25.

Once I tell them that story I see them thinking... they usually smile and hit me with the same 20 questions 'how far can it go?' 'how long does it take to charge?' 'what kind of maintance does it have?' "what if you run out'?

Then, before I know it people want to go for a ride. One guy even bought me lunch when I drove him around. Once I give them a ride they are impressed and say its a really nice, cool, car. They all say the same thing 'this does not feel like an underpowerded cramped econobox at all'.

2 of the 'car guys' on my team admit it could compete with their 'sporty' ICE cars off the line. I think we will be lining up at a red light in the near future to make some direct comparisons. I also found several people keep coming back making more jokes, then asking more questions. Each time they leave I can tell they have been enlightened.

What I have found is that most people didnt even this car was available let alone for such a low price. I find myself turning into an EV embassader of sorts. My boss spends at least 1 hour a day in my office asking me about the pervious day's driving and charging experience. People are really paying attention to my facebook posts and what I have to say about the care; how far I drove that day and what my battery charge level is. People want me to keep posting; they keep asking questions.

So in one weeks time I feel like I have changed the minds of several people around me just through sharing my reasons for getting the car and sharing my experience. Showing them that yes, I can drive fast all day, chage up at night using a regular outlet, and do it all over again the next day.

My next 'trick' that I am going to show people around me is how I can do a 106mile round trip in 1 day. Taking my son to his grandfathers house for the afternoon (charging as we visit).

 

[theaveng]

I put 3 gallons of gas in costing me $10.80. I then inform them that I drove the Leaf 68miles home in less than 1 charge and to charge it back to full that it night it cost about $2.25

I did the math on this recently, comparing a nonplug Prius versus two other plugin cars: Volt and Prius Plugin. Obviously the plugin cars were cheaper to recharge than the pure gas Prius. I do not recall the exact numbers, but in order to make-up the approximately $10,000 difference between a bottom-line Prius (the one I testdrove) and the Volt or Prius Plugin, I would have to go about 500,000 miles just to break even.

That result convinced me the Leaf would be a better option than a "pretend" EV like the Volt or Prius Plugin. The Leaf only take ~100,000 miles to breakeven with the pure gasoline Prius. After that point the Leaf is saving money on fuel. (Unless you need a new battery... then not so much.)

 

[mkjayakumar]

Please Show your numbers and calculation. Did you take the $7500 credit into account ?

Also if you compare a lease of a Leaf 'S', I am sure you will save from day 1.

 

[theaveng]

Well it isn't difficult. You assume a 50mpg Prius being run purely as a gas car, and a Prius Plugin over my daily commute (a little over 100 mile/day), and then calculate the cost per mile driven for each scenario.
- Pure gas Prius is easy: 2 gallons or $8 per day.
- For a Prius Plugin the gas portion would be $8 * 89/100 == $7.12. The eleven mile electric portion would be 95 MPGe == 2.82 kWh/mile * 10 cents per kWh == 3.55 cents per mile or 39 cents for the eleven miles. ($7.51 total per day.)
TOTAL
DIFFERENCE
49 cents saved per day (per 100 miles)

So if given approximately $10,000 difference between the base Prius and the Plugin Prius, that means I would have to drive $10,000/49 cents * 100 miles == 2 million miles just to breakeven. The Volt has a slightly better return... somewhere around 500,000 miles. (Note: Even if I assumed my employer let me recharge my Prius Plugin at work (they don't), that would only cut the payback time in half.)

 

[rumpole]

So in one weeks time I feel like I have changed the minds of several people around me just through sharing my reasons for getting the car and sharing my experience. Showing them that yes, I can drive fast all day, chage up at night using a regular outlet, and do it all over again the next day.

Nice Story.

I also frequently show my Leaf to people, either impromptu in parking lots, or at public events through my ev car club http://www.evadc.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I've always said that it's one thing to have car companies doing traditional advertising, but it's another thing entirely when it's word-of-mouth from your neighbor or friend at work, who's not trying to bs you, but who is genuinely excited about their car. This is the best antidote to negative media coverage from reporters at networks (hint: rhymes with "box") who know nothing about ev's. Your experience is a great example of this.

Some tips: It's ok to quote absolute dollars to people for a particular trip, but it's more effective to tell them cents per mile. I always say "My 98 Saturn that I was getting 30mpg in cost me 12 cents per mile to drive, which is typical for a gas car. The Leaf is 3 cents per mile." This is pretty effective, and gets the message across.

The other thing is, when people ask how long it takes to charge, I've started telling them how many miles you put on per hour of charging. That kind of turns a negative concept into a positive one. Instead of saying 7 hours at 240V, I say it puts on 15 miles per hour of charging, which is set to double to 30 miles in 2013. At L1, it adds 5 miles, so if you were able to use L1 charging at work, you could add 40 miles during the work day. For L3, I just give the usual 80% in 30 minutes.

Variants to answer the speed of charging question I've heard are:
"7 seconds to plug in, 7 seconds to unplug" or
"I don't know exactly, since I'm asleep"

 

[mkjayakumar]

theaveng:

The plugin-prius .vs. gas-prius is no comparison. A good comparison would be a gas-prius .vs. Leaf 'S' that starts at $22.5K (after tax rebate).

They both perhaps start at the same price and the Leaf starts saving you money right from day 1.

 

[GlennD]

I have had my Leaf for almost a year and a half. Everyone I work with is technical. I can not get them past the range limitations.

It does not matter that the car would work for everyone's commutes, Its the what if I need to go to...

I figured that I would rent a car if I needed a long trip but so far I have been fine. I suspect that this is true for most people.

 

[LUXMAN]

I have had my Leaf for almost a year and a half. Everyone I work with is technical. I can not get them past the range limitations.

It does not matter that the car would work for everyone's commutes, Its the what if I need to go to...

I figured that I would rent a car if I needed a long trip but so far I have been fine. I suspect that this is true for most people.

You are so right. We are dealing with maybe replacing my wife's SUV do to mechanical reasons and we almost never go outside the round trip range of the leaf. If not too far we could charge for an hour and get enough to get us home. I figure on the fuel/ electrical cost differential, we could rent a $50 car for almost 23 days to make up the difference. And I would never do that cuz I don't do road trips anymore.
That said, I want to wait and see how my new leaf holds up over next 2 years and would like to see 150-200 mile range in our next one. Battery life/degrade is also a factor I am concerned with. But without us to be early adopters what will ever change?

 

[RonDawg]

Some tips: It's ok to quote absolute dollars to people for a particular trip, but it's more effective to tell them cents per mile. I always say "My 98 Saturn that I was getting 30mpg in cost me 12 cents per mile to drive, which is typical for a gas car. The Leaf is 3 cents per mile." This is pretty effective, and gets the message across.

I disagree. I think people are more more likely to understand the savings if you explain it to them in terms of monthly cost, since people usually budget expenses out that way. "Cents per mile" IMHO tends to cause traditional ICE drivers' eyes to glass over.

But if you tell them that your old ICE costs you $160 in gas per month (assuming 1,000 miles/month and $4/gallon) and your new Leaf only costs $30 in electricity per month, I feel that has a much bigger impact. In fact, people usually say "Wow!" when I tell them that, especially when I tell them the car only costs me $199/month (plus tax) to lease.

 

[RonDawg]

I have had my Leaf for almost a year and a half. Everyone I work with is technical. I can not get them past the range limitations.

It does not matter that the car would work for everyone's commutes, Its the what if I need to go to...

I figured that I would rent a car if I needed a long trip but so far I have been fine. I suspect that this is true for most people.

The part that kills me is that most of the people who tell me this, and for whom a Leaf would work well, already come from multi-car households. These are folks who would buy a cheap ICE car (Yaris, Versa, etc.) or even a hybrid as their commuter vehicle, with their spouse/significant driving a nice ICE car, and/or they have an ICE that is too thirsty for everyday commuting, such as a pickup truck outfitted for towing. Even with easy access to an alternate car should the Leaf's range not work for them, they still have range anxiety :roll:

 

[Iowa92x]

I wouldn't be surprised if the LEAF's battery costs $15,000. Nissan probably won't charge that much if/when they offer a battery replacement program, but still...

I'd like to see what the typical battery degradation looks like after 100,000 miles. I know it will depend on where you live and average temp and blah blah, but a ballpark figure would be nice.

Above doesn't matter as much if leasing, does matter if planning to buy, keep car for 8 years and 120,000 miles. I think the long term scenario $ may not play well for the LEAF if a battery replacement is in the mix. A $10,000 battery replacement (random guess) will cost roughly the same as 78,000 miles of gas @30 MPG and $3.80 a gallon.

 

[abasile]

I think the long term scenario $ may not play well for the LEAF if a battery replacement is in the mix.

In a multi-car family, in a climate that's not too hot, it's likely to be practical to keep the LEAF for many years without ever changing the battery. Sure, the range will get smaller and smaller, but a 15 year old LEAF with only half of its original range would still be useful for lots of around-town driving.

 

[Iowa92x]

I think the long term scenario $ may not play well for the LEAF if a battery replacement is in the mix.

In a multi-car family, in a climate that's not too hot, it's likely to be practical to keep the LEAF for many years without ever changing the battery. Sure, the range will get smaller and smaller, but a 15 year old LEAF with only half of its original range would still be useful for lots of around-town driving.

I'm guessing a 15 yr-old battery will have significantly less than 50% capacity. An iPhone purchased today will likely have 20 minutes of runtime in 15 years. Degradation comes from both usage and time, battery gets a smack-down from the clock alone.

 

[abasile]

I'm guessing a 15 yr-old battery will have significantly less than 50% capacity. An iPhone purchased today will likely have 20 minutes of runtime in 15 years. Degradation comes from both usage and time, battery gets a smack-down from the clock alone.

You don't have to guess - some people have put a lot of thought into modeling battery degradation: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It appears that the rate of "calendar" degradation drops with time. If the above-referenced model proves to be accurate, then in 15 years there should be a fair number of LEAFs in moderate climates that still possess enough battery capacity to be useful. A cheap, aged LEAF could be a great commuter car for someone with a moderate commute. It should be more reliable and cheaper to run than an ICE beater. Of course, only time will tell for sure.

 

[theaveng]

theaveng: The plugin-prius .vs. gas-prius is no comparison. A good comparison would be a gas-prius .vs. Leaf 'S' that starts at $22.5K (after tax rebate).

MSRP is $30,000? In reality I'm looking for a used Leaf (even less cost of ~$17k).

 

[CMYK4Life]

I have had my Leaf for almost a year and a half. Everyone I work with is technical. I can not get them past the range limitations.

It does not matter that the car would work for everyone's commutes, Its the what if I need to go to...

I figured that I would rent a car if I needed a long trip but so far I have been fine. I suspect that this is true for most people.

The part that kills me is that most of the people who tell me this, and for whom a Leaf would work well, already come from multi-car households. These are folks who would buy a cheap ICE car (Yaris, Versa, etc.) or even a hybrid as their commuter vehicle, with their spouse/significant driving a nice ICE car, and/or they have an ICE that is too thirsty for everyday commuting, such as a pickup truck outfitted for towing. Even with easy access to an alternate car should the Leaf's range not work for them, they still have range anxiety :roll:

You make a good point. A guy I work with is extremely interested in how this EV is working out for me and is pretty skeptical.

He makes the most jokes; yet he agrees that his or his wifes daily commute is well within the range of the car.

The guy owns 5 cars (no joke). Are you telling me he couldn't drop what he was doing and drive to the Florida Keys or Alberta if he wanted to?

 

[theaveng]

It would probably help if you said, "I have a second gasoline car if I need to go more than 75 miles..... it's been almost a year since I last drove it." ;-)

 

[EVadeCarnot]

He makes the most jokes; yet he agrees that his or his wifes daily commute is well within the range of the car.

The guy owns 5 cars (no joke).

Boom- false dichotomy gets nailed. I used to keep a pickup truck around as my "other," with minimum required insurance coverage. It rusted out, I didn't replace it. It's been over a year. In my case, my backup is taking public transportation to work, a shuttle bus to the airport, a rental, etc. This is also a big reason why I went full-on EV, and not regular hybrid or PHEV. And no, Tesla was not an option for me.

Of course, my situation is probably not your situation- I know people who went with the Volt or Prius Plug-In, largely due to the occasional road trip, and I don't get on their case about it. I've had to consider two road trips. In the first case, I took a train. In the second, I had to... not go. I knew this would be an issue, and I'm okay with its consequences.