Charging question

[CRLeafSL]

I just received my 2012 Leaf SL and I will be doing the bulk of charging on the L1 cord provided. I have a 20 amp circuit breaker on the outlet I'm going to use to charge, but there is also a chest deep freezer plugged into another outlet on the same circuit. I believe the standard pull from the car is 12 amps at 120volts correct? You think with having the deep freezer on the same circuit will be a problem or do they not pull enough power to matter? Thanks.

 

[Randy]

Yes, that would be a problem if they are indeed on the same circuit.

You should have a dedicated circuit for the car EVSE that is non-GFCI (the cordset has GFCI protection built-in). A dedicated 15 amp circuit would work at a minimum, but a 20 amp circuit would give you a little headroom. The EVSE load is considered continuous load, so the 125% rule is used to calculate the required circuit rating.

 

[planet4ever]

It seems to me that if the chest freezer pulls 5 amps or less it wouldn't be a problem. The amperage should be on a label on the freezer, though probably on the back where it could be a pain to get to if the freezer is loaded. Actually, I think most current model chest freezers are rated somewhere around 5 amps, though older ones were likely to use more.

Ray

 

[keydiver]

The biggest problem will be the initial surge current when the compressor first kicks on. If you can get past that, the current usually drops down to only 1 amp or so, depending how old the freezer is.

 

[smkettner]

If the breaker trips in the middle of the night will that be an issue?

 

[CRLeafSL]

Tripping breaker wouldn't be ideal, but not a huge deal I guess. My drive to and from work is only 6 miles so I can make it there and back. It's an older one, I received it when my grandpa passed away out of the basement of his house about 3 years ago and I have no idea how long they have owned it. I moved some stuff around and opened that circuit up, but now I have that freezer, a sump pump, and a battery tenderer all running off of a 15 amp circuit so hopefully that one doesn't trip. That's really the only way I can get a dedicated outlet for the car at this point.

 

[Reddy]

Sounds similar to me, 8mi RT. I had a small, free freezer in the garage before getting the leaf. I continued using both for a couple of months in the winter, unplugging it when I plugged in the car. Not ideal, but doable for a short commute. Eventually, I found a friend who needed a free freezer more than I did. I much appreciate not having to switch between the two. You will too.

 

[ERG4ALL]

By moving that stuff around, you might keep in mind that the battery tender although rated probably somewhere around 2A is at 12V which is a fraction of an amp at 120V draw from your circuit. I would think you'd be okay unless both the sump pump and the freezer motors started at the same time. However, I would imagine that the sump pump is a fraction of a horsepower and one horsepower is around (I don't have my books with me) 750 W which is between 6 and 7 amps at 120V. The freezer motor is probably less so I would guess you won't have a problem.
By the way congratulations on being gasless!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The biggest problem will be the initial surge current when the compressor first kicks on. If you can get past that, the current usually drops down to only 1 amp or so, depending how old the freezer is.

This is indeed the problem that many people overlook. One way to test it is to let the car get to steady-state (12A), and force the freezer to start up (let it warm up a little and plug it in). If the breaker doesn't trip, you're probably fine...

 

[RegGuheert]

The biggest problem will be the initial surge current when the compressor first kicks on. If you can get past that, the current usually drops down to only 1 amp or so, depending how old the freezer is.

This is indeed the problem that many people overlook. One way to test it is to let the car get to steady-state (12A), and force the freezer to start up (let it warm up a little and plug it in). If the breaker doesn't trip, you're probably fine...

+1

We had BOTH a chest deep freeze and a refrigerator on the same 20A circuit as the LEAF used for charging when we first purchased it. The breaker NEVER tripped. As mentioned, they only draw about 1 A after they start up, but an old one could be a few amps.

But there may be a bigger issue to consider if you have a long run from the breaker panel to your garage like we do: The LEAF draws 12A continuously and if your freezer draws that or more at startup, the voltage to your garage can sag quite a bit. Unfortunately, induction machines do NOT like low voltages and they will not last nearly as long if they are run at low voltage versus the correct voltage.

 

[MikeD]

Randy: I think you are mistaken to believe the built-in GFCI of the portable EVSE means you do not need GFCI protection at the receptacle level (or before). GFCI typically only protects "down circuit", which in the case of the EVSE, means past the control box towards the J1772 connector, not before. Think about it this way: if a child were to stick a metal object into the narrow (energized) slot of the receptacle or to touch the narrow prong of the EVSE as it is partially plugged in or to touch an exposed live conductor on a newly damaged cord, and if the child were standing barefoot in water (or otherwise touching a "path to ground") -- what would you expect to happen? If the receptacle is not a GFCI one or "down circuit" from another GFCI receptacle, then the only available switch to break that circuit is the circuit's breaker -- and if that is not a GFCI breaker, then there is nothing to quickly trip open that circuit to protect that child, is there?

[Edit addition: Page CH-11 of the 2011, 2012, and 2013 "Owner's Manual" reads in part under "HOW TO TRICKLE CHARGE":
"In order to avoid an electric shock or fire due to a short circuit, connect to GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) circuit breaker and use a waterproof electrical ground socket." I think the intended meaning of "waterproof electrical ground socket" is something like "weatherproof electrical outlet cover (if outdoors)". ]

So I would say GFCI receptacle protection is a safety plus, especially where the NEC recommends them (which is ESPECIALLY outdoors, or indoors where water can be present, like a garage, bathrooms, kitchen, utility room, etc). I think GFCI protection is also wise for a receptacle very near a "path to ground", like a metal pipe, that might be touched by someone also plugging into that receptacle.

And TR (Tamper Resistant) receptacles (especially where GFCI is warranted) when children are present will save some lives eventually too.

For people worried about the possibility of "nuisance" GFCI trips that could interrupt a charging session occasionally, I would suggest that they are unlikely for a dedicated circuit (especially one outlet only) of good quality (relatively recently installed #14 or even better #12 copper cable).

One last thing: Recall Nissan has always said this about using their supplied "Trickle" EVSE: "Trickle charging is not recommended for regular use. Trickle charge can be used when it is necessary to perform an emergency charge at a destination such as a friend’s house.". Among other reasons, I believe that EVSE is just not robust enough or quite safe enough for daily use. Nissan understandably want to avoid any accidents caused by people willing to incur more risk just to save some money. At this early stage in EV acceptance, they may be risking more than just their own lives.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...One last thing: Recall Nissan has always said this about using their supplied "Trickle" EVSE: "Trickle charging is not recommended for regular use. Trickle charge can be used when it is necessary to perform an emergency charge at a destination such as a friend’s house.". Among other reasons, I believe that EVSE is just not robust enough or quite safe enough for daily use. Nissan understandably want to avoid any accidents caused by people willing to incur more risk just to save some money. At this early stage in EV acceptance, they may be risking more than just their own lives.

I disagree. Phil has said that the Panasonic/Nissan EVSE is very rugged and well-built, especially when compared to other home use EVSEs. With hundreds of upgraded units in use daily for a couple of years now, that has proven to be the case so far as I am aware. My guess is that Nissan was just being cautious about the use of plug-in EVSEs, as opposed to hard-wired ones. But they provided a solid unit with the car.

I believe that their language about "trickle charging" had more to do with the inconvenience of slow charging; they didn't want new LEAF owners to get frustrated at the slow 120 V charge rate and would prefer that owners charge with L2 EVSEs.

 

[MikeD]

dgpcolorado: I apologize that I did not to elaborate about safety concerns using the trickle EVSE on a daily basis, as I had to suddenly leave my edit session.

My concerns mainly are in the area of that Nissan probably has, which for one is that "familiarity breeds contempt", i.e. that people will tend to get careless over time, together with getting tired, angry, stupid, drunk, and maybe even suicidal, in good and perhaps even bad weather conditions of extreme rain, snow, mud, wind, and heat beyond which it is designed for safe use (113F). Some will start to let their older kids operate it, who will let their younger siblings use it, etc [Nissan: "[Trickle] EVSE Quick Reference /Safety Precautions: Never let a child handle or use it. Keep children away when in use"] -- no such precautions that I could find in any Leaf Owner's Manual for Level 2 (presumably hardwired) EVSEs. The key hardware differences with the trickle EVSE from most Level 2 EVSEs is of course 1) the former's portable cord and plug vs permanent mounting and/or hardwired wiring and 2) the former's lighter weight/robustness vs the latter. In particular I measured my trickle EVSE's charging cable as ~11mm in diameter (~25 feet in length, I think) vs my Blink's ~16mm in diameter (~18 feet in length). The thicker, stiffer cable is more resistant to kinking, twisting, and wire damage in general. The permanently mounted control box can never be dropped, stepped on, run over, and otherwise damaged like the small portable control box can. And given its cost (and importance if it's the only EVSE you have), what is the likelihood that if it gets damaged the owner will just (duck?) tape it up and continue to use it rather than replace it ["Hell, it still works -- dammit!!] as should be done?

For reference, here are the rest of the trickle "EVSE Quick Reference" pertaining to safety (many which apply only to this EVSE and not permanently mounted EVSEs):
1. Safety Precautions
WARNING (Due to mishandling, a dangerous condition might occur such as electric shock or fire.):
- Use only a Nissan Genuine EVSE.
- Never perform repair, disassembly, or reconditioning.
- Don't use an extension cord or adapter.
- Stop using it immediately if a failure or abnormality occurs.
- Don't touch the plug with wet hands.
- Don't touch terminal parts of Charge Connector and Normal Charge port of the vehicle.
- Don't connect outlet other than the voltage rating.
- Don't use this product if the flexible power cord or EV cable are frayed, have broken insulation, or any other signs of damage.
- Don't use this product if the enclosure or the EV connector are broken, cracked, open, or show any other indication of damage.
- Never let a child handle or use it. Keep children away when in use.
- Maximum Ambient: 45 deg C [= 113 deg F]
- GROUNDING INSTRUCTION
The product must be grounded. If it should malfunction or breakdown, grounding provides a path of least resistance for electric current to reduce the risk of electric shock. This product is erquipped with a cord having an equipment grounding conductor and a grounding plug. The plug must be plugged into an appropriate outlet that is properly installed and grounded in accordance with all local codes and ordinances.
WARNING - Improper connection of the equipment-grounding conductor is able to result in a risk of electric shock. Check with a qualified electrician or serviceman if you are in doubt as to whether the product is properly grounded. Do not modify the plug provided with the product - if it will not fit the outklet, have a proper outlet installed by a qualified electrician.
- MOVING AND STORAGE
Don't drop.
When carrying and moving, do not pull the cable strongly.
When storing this product, locate in the shade.
PRECAUTIONS (Due to mishandling, a part might be damaged.):
- Don't submerge the control box in water.
- Prevent foreign matter from getting into the terminal parts of Normal Charge Connector or Plug.
- Don't step on the cable or cord. Don't pull on the cable, fold or put tight kinks in the cable or cord.
- Don't charge when there might be a lightning strike.
- Don't drop the control Box or place a heavy object on it.
- Don't place objects that might generate a high temperature near the EVSE when charging.
2. How to use EVSE
Check Before Use
- Make sure there are no abnormalities such as scratches, rust, cracks, or tears in the surface of Normal Charge Connector, Cable, Control Box, Cord, and Plug.
- Stop charging if damage, rust, or cracks exist on the outlet surface, or any loose connections are found.
- Wipe with a clean and dry cloth if the plug gets dirty or wet.
.
.
.

 

[davewill]

dgpcolorado: I apologize that I did not to elaborate about safety concerns using the trickle EVSE on a daily basis, as I had to suddenly leave my edit session.

My concerns mainly are ...

You definitely have a lot of concern. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think, for safety, you'd better lock that EVSE up in your trunk. In fact, maybe you better just leave it locked up at home, and call roadside assistance rather than chance using such a dangerous device.

 

[gbarry42]

- Do not taunt Electric Vehicle Service Equipment.
- Discontinue use in the event participants of the Forum exhibit worried expressions.

 

[smkettner]

Just don't lick it

 

[Ingineer]

We have thousands of upgraded Nissan units in daily operation all around the world. We have had ZERO reports of any dangerous situations developing. Hell, one of our upgrades recently survived a full-on lightning strike that destroyed other parts in the owner's Leaf, (including the on-board charger) and almost all electronic equipment in his house! It still works perfectly!

All this, and we are running the EVSE at 16A versus 12A. It has also been reliably tested for extended times at 24A.

However, almost every week we receive reports of other brand EVSE's malfunctioning and doing unusual things, some of which are definitely dangerous. (Such as the many overheating Blink connectors)

Keep in mind the lawyers rule everything now, and all companies permanently exist in a CYA holding pattern.

True to form, We make all our customers sign an agreement that they will have their application inspected by a qualified electrician. Unfortunately there are many crappy outlets out there (though, a lot less often found when 240v).

Personally, I recommend you have a dedicated circuit installed with a spec-grade outlet. Of course, you could have it installed as a 240v outlet for not much more expense and then have your EVSE upgraded and be enjoying full Level 2.

-Phil

 

[MikeD]

Ingineer: Thanks for your post! Could you also make a statement about the safety value of using GFCI protection for outdoor receptacles (240v as well as 120v)?

 

[Ingineer]

Code requires GFCI protection on all outdoor outlets.

Keep in mind, you should ALWAYS follow code! Having said that, the code is written by the NFPA which is made up of a board of insurance companies. What do you think their goal is?

Personally, a 240V outlet is no more dangerous with respect to electrocution, as it's still only 120v above ground. In fact, a wet 240v cable with even leakage from both sides would result in 0 volts with respect to the ground, whereas a 120v cable with even leakage would result in 60 volts!

There is a lot of irrational fear around 240V in this country. For most of the world 240V is standard residential voltage, and note that it's 240V above ground! Yet, people are not dying left and right.

Though, I do have to say that the old dryer style "big blade" 240v plugs and sockets in common use in the US are definitely not "finger friendly". This is why I recommend the use of NEMA twist-locks for all 240V applications, and why I equip the upgrade with a fully molded L6-20 twist-lock. It's very hard to get a finger in there while it's connected!

If I had an older house that was "grandfathered" in and didn't come equipped with GFCI protection, and I didn't have any children, I personally would not bother with a GFCI upgrade. (Though that's MY risk to take, this is not me advising you to do such!) Rather, I would replace any outlets I was intending to use on an EVSE with a brand-new spec-grade unit. I would not routinely be connecting/disconnecting the EVSE from the wall, so there would be low risk. I'm also smart enough to know that if either the connection or myself is soaking wet, to expect significant electrical leakage current.

I've been shocked more times than I can count by common wall voltage, many times on-purpose to check for voltage. If you are dry, and wearing good shoes, all you really ever feel is a tingle. I'll use top precautions when working with voltages over 400 volts, but with normal 120/240, I (like most professional electricians) rarely even bother to turn off power for simple repairs. Again, this is not a recommendation that anyone emulate my methods, and I don't advise ANYONE attempt ANY electrical work unless fully qualified and experienced with such.

-Phil

 

[RegGuheert]

I'm with Phil on all the above.

The only thing I will add is IF I were planning to use an extension cord with an EVSE in our grandfathered-in garage, I would install a GFCI outlet or breaker to protect that extension cord. Eventually that thing is likely to get wet or frayed or both.