Charging to charge?

[Covinaman]

http://www.plugincars.com/should-public-electric-car-charging-be-open-and-free-106695.html

This may be an old topic for some but new to me. Seeing that public money is being spent to install the EV highway, something is wrong with Chargepoint is taking that money to install a fee service. It looks like the same Wallstreet commodite traders are all ready make their way in to ruin the electric car's future.

 

[davewill]

Hate to burst your bubble, but Ecotality is using public money to build a commercial network, too. And lots of EV companies are taking public money to develop technologies for profit. Don't forget about the solar and wind companies using public money for R&D and to subsidize sales. Oh, and Nissan is getting the LEAF subsidized with LOTS of public money, so that they can build EVs that people can afford to buy. They intend to make profits on the LEAF, too. The point of public investment in EVs is to launch a profitable EV industry. If the companies can't charge anything, then it will die as soon as the public stops funding it.

 

[thankyouOB]

Hate to burst your bubble, but Ecotality is using public money to build a commercial network, too. And lots of EV companies are taking public money to develop technologies for profit. Don't forget about the solar and wind companies using public money for R&D and to subsidize sales. Oh, and Nissan is getting the LEAF subsidized with LOTS of public money, so that they can build EVs that people can afford to buy. They intend to make profits on the LEAF, too. The point of public investment in EVs is to launch a profitable EV industry. If the companies can't charge anything, then it will die as soon as the public stops funding it.

ECOtality commercial installs do not include ECOtality charging for their use. They are in discussions to install some at my work place.
In fact, we are told that they cannot be just for employee use. You must have public access to them. So, if you charge for parking, there may be charges, but none of it goes to ECOtality, as far as I can tell.

 

[Lopton]

http://www.plugincars.com/should-public-electric-car-charging-be-open-and-free-106695.html

This may be an old topic for some but new to me. Seeing that public money is being spent to install the EV highway, something is wrong with Chargepoint is taking that money to install a fee service. It looks like the same Wallstreet commodite traders are all ready make their way in to ruin the electric car's future.

Charging stations and infrastructure will not be installed unless there is an economic reason to do so. The government is merely trying to kickstart the process by giving these grants out. The more charging stations, the more EV's and more comfortable people feel with them. Then hopefully the private industry can take over and it will become a functional business model.

If you disagree with the government grant to chargepoint and them charging people, do you also disagree with the federal tax credit that is giving public money to you for buying an electric car? I don't see how that is much different. Especially since the tax credit is horribly biased towards people with an above average salary (low income folks would get almost no rebate).

ECOtality commercial installs do not include ECOtality charging for their use. They are in discussions to install some at my work place.In fact, we are told that they cannot be just for employee use. You must have public access to them. So, if you charge for parking, there may be charges, but none of it goes to ECOtality, as far as I can tell.

My understanding is that Ecotality is going to allow EV Project participants free charging (at the public locations) up until the EV project ends then have the option to charge ?

-Matt

 

[cdub]

I'd gladly pay for a charge (Assuming it's reasonable)

I WANT to pay because I WANT EV chargers to be AVAILABLE.

I want there to be an incentive for people to install them.

 

[LEAFfan]

Charging stations and infrastructure will not be installed unless there is an economic reason to do so. The government is merely trying to kickstart the process by giving these grants out. The more charging stations, the more EV's and more comfortable people feel with them. Then hopefully the private industry can take over and it will become a functional business model.
Especially since the tax credit is horribly biased towards people with an above average salary (low income folks would get almost no rebate).
My understanding is that Ecotality is going to allow EV Project participants free charging up until the EV project ends then charge ?
-Matt

You must mean besides the 7 roll out states? Because charging stations WILL and ARE being installed now in those states. And DC fast chargers will be installed also before the end of the year. Blink charging stations will be free until the end of the Project which ends Dec., 2012. The fed tax credit IS biased IF you buy, but anyone can take the full tax credit if they lease.

 

[Lopton]

You must mean besides the 7 roll out states? Because charging stations WILL and ARE being installed now in those states. And DC fast chargers will be installed also before the end of the year. Blink charging stations will be free until the end of the Project which ends Dec., 2012. The fed tax credit IS biased IF you buy, but anyone can take the full tax credit if they lease.

I will admit I am biased here, in my eyes ChargePoint is a superior company to Ecotality in every way shape and form. When I look at the chargepoint website, it actually has hundreds of public charging stations listed and the current status of them. When I look at the Ecotality website I find NO maps of charging stations, and nothing but press releases exclaiming how great their profit is ("ECOtality Announces 61% Increase in Revenue for the First Quarter 2011") and how they have managed to install a total of like 2 public charging stations. They got the lion share of the government money and in my opinion they are failing on the public infrastructure portion of their job. The only thing Ecotality has proved good at doing is releasing press releases stating how awesome they are, and maybe that they are decent at installing residential stations....

As far as charging at the charging stations, you are using that persons/companies/places electricity and their equipment I don't see a problem with paying for it (at reasonable rates).

Lastly as far as DC charging stations :roll: I'll believe that when I see it... the Leaf LVL 3 isn't even standard, and probably won't become standard, so who knows what will happen with that...

-Matt

 

[Herm]

"But the parking lot owners, private businesses, and fleet operators are not required to grant access to the stations unless fees are paid, or the business owners want to make the charging equipment accessible."

Its not practical to allow public access to private locations, supposedly the free charger installed at a non-public business location would benefit their employees, promoting electrics. Now, if the parking is at a mall all bets are off.

Users should pay for the electricity, for the equipment (unless its an L1 socket) and for the parking space (if L2 or L3) to discourage long term parking.

For the Leaf and Volt, at the national average of $0.11 a kwh, they would pay $0.42 per hour to cover the electricity cost.. Leaf L2 would be more, an more for the Focus if it ever becomes available.

"Geller believes that businesses using public funds to buy or install a charger should be required to make that charger free and accessible for about three to five years, while electric cars gain a foothold in the marketplace. He said that allowing any business to get a charger simply because they want one is not good public policy."

Thats a matter of debate, should we give any tax benefits to businesses?

 

[Covinaman]

I won't be paying, chargepoint a cent. I will shop at business that invite EV drivers by installing public charging stations.

If you buy in to the capitalist BS, then go ahead. Make mine anti-consumerism, anti-globalism, anti- corparate America.

I'm in to EV to end oil company corruption or any thing else that wants to take its place. (ie Charge Point).

 

[davewill]

I won't be paying, chargepoint a cent. I will shop at business that invite EV drivers by installing public charging stations.

If you buy in to the capitalist BS, then go ahead. Make mine anti-consumerism, anti-globalism, anti- corparate America.

I'm in to EV to end oil company corruption or any thing else that wants to take its place. (ie Charge Point).

So let me get this straight. You want all transportation costs piggybacked onto your retail shopping? How is that an improvement, much less "anti-consumerism, anti-globalism, anti- corparate America"? I suppose if you get your way, you'll then be complaining because the only place to charge in your community is WalMart, or McDonald's and you can't understand why. You're putting consumerism (shopping) square in the middle of the mix. Sounds to me you're mostly hung up on "free charging".

I have no problem with free charging at shopping malls, I think it makes a lot of sense, but I also want charging other places, like the local park or doctor's offices. Assuming that every place I need to visit is going to have an economic incentive to give me charging for free is absurd. Besides, ChargePoint isn't your enemy. They don't actually sell the power, anyway. They are only the billing system for whoever is hosting the EVSE. It's the mall, doctor's office, or local government that is charging you for plugging in.

 

[Glenn]

I won't be paying, chargepoint a cent. I will shop at business that invite EV drivers by installing public charging stations.

If you buy in to the capitalist BS, then go ahead. Make mine anti-consumerism, anti-globalism, anti- corparate America.

I'm in to EV to end oil company corruption or any thing else that wants to take its place. (ie Charge Point).

Covina, don't take this personally, but I have a hard time understanding why some people think the electric fuel for their car should be free?

We never expected Texaco or Mobil to give us free gasoline for our old ICEers, we don't ask Safeway or Albertsons to give us free milk and eggs, we don't boycott Starbucks or Peets if they try to charge us for our caffeinated people-fuel. Why should it be any different with electricity? Sure, if a merchant offers an enticement to shop with them, that may sway our decision-making, but I fail to see why electricity shouldn't be treated like any other commodity.

I'm sure there are other opinions,

Glenn

 

[Covinaman]

I'm in to EV to end oil company corruption or any thing else that wants to take its place. (ie Charge Point).

Covina, don't take this personally, but I have a hard time understanding why some people think the electric fuel for their car should be free?

We never expected Texaco or Mobil to give us free gasoline for our old ICEers, we don't ask Safeway or Albertsons to give us free milk and eggs, we don't boycott Starbucks or Peets if they try to charge us for our caffeinated people-fuel. Why should it be any different with electricity? Sure, if a merchant offers an enticement to shop with them, that may sway our decision-making, but I fail to see why electricity shouldn't be treated like any other commodity.

I'm sure there are other opinions,

Glenn

I borrowed the following dialog for a comment in the original article, But thanks for the disagreement we are just from different Religons, political views, and/or service different masters.

I think people are freaking out when you say EV’s should charge for free. Because they are still in a gas mold thinking it cost me $30-$60 to fill up why should they charge free. The truth is the Leaf will only use up about .25¢ of electricity per hour @.10¢/Kw. Now stores offer 50¢ off a box of cereal or $1 off a happy meal and many more items just to entice you to come to there store. So why not offer a free hook up to get you to go to there store instead of the store that does not have a charger. Here’s the kicker, stores know the longer you stay in there the more you spend, so why not have the EV drivers come and charge for an hour or two for .25¢-.50¢ and have them spend a 100 to 250 times that amount in there store. So not only do they look like they care for the environment and how they take care of there customers by providing a free service all the while they are racking in the profits. Free is a relative word, in the end we (and I say we because I get my Leaf in April) still pay for it in the goods we buy from said store and this I don’t mind.

 

[LEAFer]

Raley's offers 25cents off each gallon of gasoline at their Aisle 1 gas station for every $100 of groceries you (no, not YOU, but, you the ICE driver) buy in their store.

Should I feel discriminated against ?

Assuming the average ICE then does an average 12 gallon fill-up ... that's $3 in the Raley's customer's pocket.

Where's my $3 :x

 

[davewill]

Raley's offers 25cents off each gallon of gasoline at their Aisle 1 gas station for every $100 of groceries you (no, not YOU, but, you the ICE driver) buy in their store.

Should I feel discriminated against ?

Only if you like feeling foolish. We got tons of help buying these cars, plus carpool lanes, free charging a lot of places, etc... By all means let the grocery store know that this particular promotion isn't useful to you, though. They might throw you a different bone. Maybe installing charging equipment?

 

[Herm]

Make them feel guilty and install a couple dozen 120V sockets..