Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[GetOffYourGas]

I find it amusing that there is far more discussion on this thread than on the entirety of the mychevybolt.com forum, especially today.

I can't wait to see what the real range is on the highway at various real speeds. Like 70 or 80MPH. This will really highlight whether the Bolt is a road-trip capable car or not. Of course, I don't expect Chevy to provide that information. I just hope someone is inspired enough to recreate something like Tony's Leaf Range Chart for the Bolt.

Because most of the potential buyers already have a LEAF

True, myself included. But I'm not the only one from this forum who also participates in that one. I guess if one drives a Leaf, then one tends to stick to the Leaf forum? My thought was to join the Bolt forum to get Bolt-specific discussions. But both it and this thread have been great.

 

[Valdemar]

For me 200 mile range would mean I could take a longer less congested route to work that also has an HOV lane, drive FAST, probably save 30 minutes a day on it, and not charge at work paying 55c/kWh. But I want a larger car, a bit tired from driving an econobox.

 

[dgpcolorado]

This is good news on the (EPA) rating but still not a practical road trip car in many markets because there is not proper charging infrastructure nor will there be for a very long time. Presently I can go anywhere I need in a Model 3 but with the Bolt I simply can't drive on any of my longer trips, not one. Not to mention that once a few chargers are put in they will likely be limited and heavily used and abused and not in proper locations. The huge difference between any EV released today and the Tesla is simply the charging infrastructure and type of charger. Yes this is a longer range EV for many folks but I simply find comparisons to any Tesla model funny as the charging, performance, and safety differences are significant. Oh, and looks Because it may have an extra 20 miles range than others is simply moot for many. Having the Supercharger network can literally eliminate a second car for many and also eliminates DC charging costs as well. If this car had access to the supercharger network it would be much better but still not a car I would compare directly to a Model 3, to a LEAF yes.. I still gag when I see that ugly Chevy logo on the steering wheel, they really need to revise that design for the future as it looks like an ugly rental car, at least make it smaller. Back logo is hideous as well.

Well said. The Bolt may well be an excellent choice for a local or regional trip car, especially when a household has a second car for long trips, but it is not a road trip car. The Bolt is a good alternative to a LEAF unless Nissan really steps up its game. But it isn't competition for Tesla in any meaningful way, assuming that Tesla manages to meet its goals, both in ramping up production, improving QC, and drastically increasing Service Center capacity. (That remains to be seen.)

Nevertheless, another capable EV that can displace a lot of ICEV travel is all well and good to me.

 

[EVDRIVER]

This is good news on the (EPA) rating but still not a practical road trip car in many markets because there is not proper charging infrastructure nor will there be for a very long time. Presently I can go anywhere I need in a Model 3 but with the Bolt I simply can't drive on any of my longer trips, not one. Not to mention that once a few chargers are put in they will likely be limited and heavily used and abused and not in proper locations. The huge difference between any EV released today and the Tesla is simply the charging infrastructure and type of charger. Yes this is a longer range EV for many folks but I simply find comparisons to any Tesla model funny as the charging, performance, and safety differences are significant. Oh, and looks Because it may have an extra 20 miles range than others is simply moot for many. Having the Supercharger network can literally eliminate a second car for many and also eliminates DC charging costs as well. If this car had access to the supercharger network it would be much better but still not a car I would compare directly to a Model 3, to a LEAF yes.. I still gag when I see that ugly Chevy logo on the steering wheel, they really need to revise that design for the future as it looks like an ugly rental car, at least make it smaller. Back logo is hideous as well.

Well said. The Bolt may well be an excellent choice for a local or regional trip car, especially when a household has a second car for long trips, but it is not a road trip car. The Bolt is a good alternative to a LEAF unless Nissan really steps up its game. But it isn't competition for Tesla in any meaningful way, assuming that Tesla manages to meet its goals, both in ramping up production, improving QC, and drastically increasing Service Center capacity. (That remains to be seen.)

Nevertheless, another capable EV that can displace a lot of ICEV travel is all well and good to me.

I think they would have had significantly better sales if they had not made it so utilitarian and cheap looking.

 

[Firetruck41]

Replies to my previous post certainly show that there are many perspectives on the Bolt. For me, a roadtrip car needs to go from Portland to Seattle, or Bend, or the OR/WA Coast. I have driven further than that 2 times in 15 years, so yeah, it can be a roadtrip car for me, once every seven years I will take a plane, rent a car, or drive my truck. As far as looks, yes it is subjective, I love a good looking car, but function comes before form with a vehicle, for me. So far the trunk/hatch thingy on the Model3 leaves a lot to be desired on the function side of things. I definitely do no think the Bolt looks ugly, but I have always owned a wagon or hatch since my first car (1981 Honda Civic, 1991 Accord Wagon, 1992 BMW E34 Wagon, Land Cruiser/LX450/470, Leaf...). While I won't say I am representative of the majority of drivers, I probably represent a significant portion.

There is room for lots of opinions, so just remember, yours isn't the only one, or else there would only be one make/model of each size of car/truck/SUV.

Superchargers will be an advantage, not sure how much exactly, especially when we don't know the cost. I would probably be fine w/L2, as I am usually overnight at my destinations, but the faster charging the better, of course.

 

[abasile]

But I want a larger car, a bit tired from driving an econobox.

I hear you. I think that GM is squandering a nice battery pack on too small a car, even smaller than the LEAF. The Bolt could have been made larger and more aerodynamic, thus achieving a similar EPA range number. Even if the Model 3 ends up with only 215 miles of range compared to the Bolt's 238, I think most people will find the beautiful designed Model 3 far more compelling even apart from the Supercharger network advantage. Again, that's assuming Tesla executes well.

Most likely, we'll still end up buying a used Model S.

 

[DanCar]

But I want a larger car, a bit tired from driving an econobox.

I hear you. I think that GM is squandering a nice battery pack on too small a car, even smaller than the LEAF. The Bolt could have been made larger and more aerodynamic, thus achieving a similar EPA range number. Even if the Model 3 ends up with only 215 miles of range compared to the Bolt's 238, I think most people will find the beautiful designed Model 3 far more compelling even apart from the Supercharger network advantage. Again, that's assuming Tesla executes well.

Most likely, we'll still end up buying a used Model S.

Agree 100%. I would take the same motors and battery on a minivan. Although hopefully they make minivan more aerodynamic.

 

[GRA]

In my case, the range - as long as it exceeds 120 miles - isn't as important an issue as the reliability and features. If the car keeps breaking down before it gets to 238 miles, that's a problem. ;-)

If the Bolt is anywhere near as reliable as the Volt, you have nothing to worry about!

383 km is impressive. Opens up lots of trips.

Overkill for commuting. Only one battery size option?

Indeed. This is potentially a road-trip car. Unless GM cripples it with a maximum 50kW DCQC. But with 100-150kW charging, and 238 miles of range, the Bolt would be a true Tesla fighter.

The one thing that might hold it back as a road trip car is its Cd, which the Bolt's lead designer described as 'a disaster for aero', at 0.32. To provide space for four adults in a short, relatively narrow car intended primarily for commuting and urban use they had to go tall. Compare the Bolt to the e-Golf:

Bolt: 164" x 69.5" x 62.8"

e-Golf: 168" x 71" x 57"

So, while its range is fine for commuting and local errands, high speed cruising is likely to see a much larger range drop off compared to a more slippery car like the Model 3.

BTW, BMW just announced that they've completed EV Express QC corridors (I-5 and 95, I assume) on both the east and west coasts. A lot of the QCs are 24kW, but some are 50kW, and you've been able to drive north of Sacramento to Oregon on I-5 using CCS QCs for several months now, which you still can't do with CHAdeMO.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Yes, let's see some real world numbers.

 

[GRA]

Yes, let's see some real world numbers.

The GCR/C&D reports were encouraging, but then Highway 1 is just about the ideal road trip for a BEV. A return to Monterey from Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo or Paso Robles via 101 would have been more useful for determining what people could expect on road trips, as it's both hotter and faster.

 

[knightmb]

C&D's report of the same test drive:

Eager to prove that the Bolt really will go that far on a single charge, Chevrolet planned out a route from Monterey to Santa Barbara, California, that spanned approximately 240 miles on coastal highways. The route included elevation changes and higher cruising speeds, conditions that do not typically favor electric cars, which do best in stop-and-go situations that make the most of their regenerative-braking capability. (Chevrolet claims that about 40 miles of the EPA-rated range is attributable to regen adding energy back into the battery while the car is underway.)

During our day with the Bolt, we did not drive in an overly aggressive manner, nor did we hypermile. Most of the time, we stayed out of the standard Drive setting and kept the car in its Low mode, which increases the amount of regenerative slowdown you get when you lift off the go pedal. (More on that later.) Temperatures were in the 60s for the first half of our route, so we left the fan blowing without activating air conditioning; as we drove farther south, the temperature rose, and we set the automatic climate control to 72 degrees.

The results speak for themselves: After driving 238 miles, we arrived at our destination with the range estimator displaying 34 miles remaining. No complicated math was required to see that the Bolt clearly can far outperform Chevy’s initial estimate. Other drivers on the same route achieved varying numbers—one vehicle finished with a range indicator simply flashing Low rather than displaying a number—but each of the four Bolts on our drive completed the tall task...

If you read further into the links, you finally arrive at the page that shows the entire trip was made on what they said mostly level driving with an efficiency of 4.8 miles/kWh
Leaf drivers will recognize that means driving at around 45 mph or slower, which means a new Leaf with a 24 kW/h pack would be able to get about +105 miles at that same efficiency. The Bolt used 50.1 kW/h of energy to drive 238 miles. The article claims they were driving 65-70 mph the whole way, but the distance and efficiency disagree with that since we already know the CoD of the Bolt.

While I hope the Bolt does do well and that it brings more people on board with EV, a lot of people are going to get burned by the hype surrounding the Bolt when they drive it like a gas vehicle at 75 to 85 mph and only get about 3.0 efficiency, then complain that the distance to empty meter shows way less than the EPA 238 miles (more like 180 miles on a good day).

 

[EVDRIVER]

But I want a larger car, a bit tired from driving an econobox.

I hear you. I think that GM is squandering a nice battery pack on too small a car, even smaller than the LEAF. The Bolt could have been made larger and more aerodynamic, thus achieving a similar EPA range number. Even if the Model 3 ends up with only 215 miles of range compared to the Bolt's 238, I think most people will find the beautiful designed Model 3 far more compelling even apart from the Supercharger network advantage. Again, that's assuming Tesla executes well.

Most likely, we'll still end up buying a used Model S.

Of course there will be pack and performance options as well. Tesla will have to really screw up to not have a vastly superior product and you can bet every model 3 will have auto pilot standard. It's a shame GM insisted on making this car look like a cheap Focus. Since the cd is not that great they have no excuse. Those who wait should snatch up a great low lease rate.

 

[DanCar]

... you can bet every model 3 will have auto pilot standard. ...

I'll bet it will have autopilot 2 hardware standard and their will be a big cost to enable it. Through software updates will eventually have full driverless capability.

 

[EVDRIVER]

... you can bet every model 3 will have auto pilot standard. ...

I'll bet it will have autopilot 2 hardware standard and their will be a big cost to enable it. Through software updates will eventually have full driverless capability.

All Teslas are shipped this way and the option is $2500 on an S. If it is not enabled I expect the cost to be this or lower.

 

[DanCar]

... you can bet every model 3 will have auto pilot standard. ...

I'll bet it will have autopilot 2 hardware standard and their will be a big cost to enable it. Through software updates will eventually have full driverless capability.

All Teslas are shipped this way and the option is $2500 on an S. If it is not enabled I expect the cost to be this or lower.

Price has increased to $3K if ordered initially and $3.5K if ordered afterwards.

 

[jkline]

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/09/the-numbers-are-in-the-chevrolet-bolt-will-have-a-238-mile-range/

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'll bet it will have autopilot 2 hardware standard and their will be a big cost to enable it. Through software updates will eventually have full driverless capability.

All Teslas are shipped this way and the option is $2500 on an S. If it is not enabled I expect the cost to be this or lower.

Price has increased to $3K if ordered initially and $3.5K if ordered afterwards.

Liability plus future sensor upgrade cost-

 

[EVDRIVER]

"We're not the only ones; last week Apple co-founder and all-around legend Steve Wozniak told the world (via Facebook) that he's likely to switch from a Tesla to the Bolt. Woz explained that after seeing the interior and the UI, the Bolt solves a lot of his complaints about the Tesla."


Sounds like something a tech geek would say about leaving a Tesla to a Bolt. We all know how unusable (sarcasm) the Tesla UI is and that giving up pretty much every other aspect of the car that has zero comparison to the Bolt makes sense. I'm sure Tesla is terrified by this.

 

[edatoakrun]

="knightmb"

While I hope the Bolt does do well and that it brings more people on board with EV, a lot of people are going to get burned by the hype surrounding the Bolt when they drive it like a gas vehicle at 75 to 85 mph...

Which is why it is disingenuous to describe any BEV's range in miles, without specifying the speed...

As I posted yesterday, you can estimate the bolt's constant-speed range fairly accurately by comparing it's EPA rated range to the actual Range compared to EPA for the 2014 Tesla Model S 85 kWh.

I was quite surprised when I saw the email this morning. 238 is more than I was guessing (210-215)...

Remember that is EPA (relatively low speed average) range, is considerably higher than road-trip range at freeway speeds.

The 2014 2014 Tesla Model S 85 kWh was rated 265 miles EPA, but could only go ~228 miles in AVTA tests at 70 mph, despite favorable test conditions of constant-speed and 27 C average ambient temperatures.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/driving-range-model-s-family

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/fact2014teslamodels.pdf

The Bolt should be expected get about 200 to 205 miles from full charge to shutdown when tested under the same conditions, and will cover considerably fewer miles before shutdown when driven at more typical higher (and variable) freeway speeds, or in cooler ambient temperatures.

And of course you will always need to stop at a charge site, at some distance shorter than the full range, before the Bolt's BMS prevents you from driving further.

Using that same method, you could estimate the Bolt might get:

~250 miles at 60 mph constant level route at 33 C ambient.

~329 miles at 45 mph constant on a level route at 31C ambient.

Remember, the long ranges on these tests are a result of testing at fairly high temperatures.

In fact, since the aero disadvantage of the Bolt is proportionately larger at higher speeds, and ithat probably outweighs the lower weight and (probable) drivetrain efficiencies advantages the Bolt has over the Tesla (disproportionally greater at lower speed) so you might expect the Bolt to beat those results by a few miles at lower speeds, and it likely would come a few miles short of ~200 miles at 70 mph, under the same test conditions.

Bolt range will continue to drop off precipitously at speeds above 70, just as it does for any BEV.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I think they would have had significantly better sales if they had not made it so utilitarian and cheap looking.

I have mixed feelings about that. I like utility (and love the Model S hatchback and am disappointed in the Model 3 trunk design); I don't care a whit about looks. But I realize that sexy looks is a big deal to many and you may well be right that the utilitarian Bolt might sell better with a more attractive design. Perhaps Chevy will come out with a nicer looking sibling vehicle someday. What they really need is an electric Corvette, but that's a step too far for stodgy GM.