Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[rmay635703]

GM and Hyundai are notorious for discounting so throw MSRP out the window, there are already $2k off bolts, just wait and the bolt will slide into a more reasonable price bracket.

GM also improves each model year to the gafah of early adopters.
Don't be surprised is later Bolts change slightly over the years

 

[Zythryn]

...

GM also improves each model year to the gafah of early adopters.
Don't be surprised is later Bolts change slightly over the years

Isn't that as it should be?
The first iPhone sucked compared to the newer ones.
As far as I know, this is true for all company's products.

 

[lorenfb]

Who would want to stop twice as often to charge (Ioniq)?.. .

No reason you have to.

As has been pointed out previously, the Bolt's poor freeway efficiency and early charge taper (reportedly dropping to ~35 kW at ~54% charge, and only ~25 kW at ~70% charge) means the Bolt needs to recharge every 75 to 125 miles to travel long distances as quickly as possible.

Driving an Ioniq, you would want to stop every 75 to 100 miles to accomplish the same objective, probably one more recharge stop over a whole day's driving.

Watch Bjørn Nyland's video below.

Using only the lower-kW DC sites available in the USA today, the same ~20 kWh of charge should take close to 30 minutes.

~20 kWh charge accepted in ~19 minutes.

Slowly increases from ~60 kW to ~70 kW (perhaps due in part to pack warming?) until charge rate begins to taper after reaching > 75% capacity.

Charging Hyundai Ioniq on 100 kW CCS
Bjørn Nyland

Published on Jan 16, 2017
Hyundai Ioniq supports up to 70 kW via the CCS plug. I tested this on a 100 kW Delta charger at Vestby, Norway last night. Peak power was 69.3 which was pretty close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3gJ8fWW5g

Hyundai Ioniq BEV, hybrid, and PHEV.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=21136&start=90

"Stoaty"...A longer stop with the Bolt would be more conducive to getting a meal...

Well, if you prefer to wait longer for charging, on long trips, I suppose the bolt may be the BEV you want...

"Stoaty"... I drive 140 miles round trip most weekends with a lot of elevation gain. The Bolt would handle that easily. I would have to charge the Ioniq...

Maybe not.

Depends primarily on how fast you drive. Total ascent and descent have relatively little effect on BEV range, and will have considerably less effect on the lighter Ioniq, than it does on a LEAF.

I posted back in 2015 why a ~27 kWh available LEAF could make my regular ~161 mile ~13,600 ft. total ascent/descent trip on one charge, and the Ioniq's superior efficiency and available battery capacity when compared to the LEAF should make it considerably easier.

I'd expect an Ioniq would probably make the same trip using only about 22 kWh, meaning I'd have ~6 kWh remaining in my initial charge, so I could drive faster (or further) without a recharge, if I wanted to.

="edatoakrun"

Some more info for anyone wanting to plan a drive up to Lassen next year.

I estimate my LEAF used ~22.7 actual kWh to reach the ~8,500 ft. Lassen Peak lot, and ~25.2 actual kWh to make the entire ~161 mile ~13,600 ft. total ascent/descent trip, when I last drove this route on 8/19/15.

Which is why I would have needed to recharge en-route back in 2011, when My LEAF had ~21 actual kWh available, and need to even more so now, (~4.5 years and ~41,000 miles later) since my pack now only has ~18 kWh available to turtle.

I expect the 30 kWh pack probably has ~27 kWh available, so I'd probably be able to make ~the same trip at ~the same speeds on a single charge, in a 2016 SV or SL...

Lassen Peak trip

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5022&start=10

"Stoaty"...Note to self: longer range is better

That seems to be the simplistic thinking GM is counting on to sell overpriced, overweight, and inefficient Bolts...

For those interested in a more rigorous solution to this "potential dilemma", one should consider using
this:

http://www.sosmath.com/matrix/matrix.html

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

about that early charge taper; anyone else think it strange that happens more on a NRG (billed by the minute) than say AV ?(billed by the session)

Data to follow

 

[TonyWilliams]

about that early charge taper; anyone else think it strange that happens more on a NRG (billed by the minute) than say AV ?(billed by the session)

Data to follow

Please don't start some bizarro conspiracy theory. The vehicle ALWAYS controls the charge rate... ALWAYS.

The charger will respond to the charge request up to the limits of the charger.

THE CHARGER HAS NO IDEA WHAT CAR IS PLUGGED IN, NOR DOES IT MATTER.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

about that early charge taper; anyone else think it strange that happens more on a NRG (billed by the minute) than say AV ?(billed by the session)

Data to follow

Please don't start some bizarro conspiracy theory. The vehicle ALWAYS controls the charge rate... ALWAYS.

The charger will respond to the charge request up to the limits of the charger.

THE CHARGER HAS NO IDEA WHAT CAR IS PLUGGED IN, NOR DOES IT MATTER.

not conspiracy at all. I think some chargers only check battery status at the beginning of the charge to determine the charge rate. This can result in a charge rate starting lower than it should have complete with taper....

 

[TonyWilliams]

about that early charge taper; anyone else think it strange that happens more on a NRG (billed by the minute) than say AV ?(billed by the session)

Data to follow

Please don't start some bizarro conspiracy theory. The vehicle ALWAYS controls the charge rate... ALWAYS.

The charger will respond to the charge request up to the limits of the charger.

THE CHARGER HAS NO IDEA WHAT CAR IS PLUGGED IN, NOR DOES IT MATTER.

not conspiracy at all. I think some chargers only check battery status at the beginning of the charge to determine the charge rate. This can result in a charge rate starting lower than it should have complete with taper....

That's great that you think that, but you're absolutely wrong. If you want to start that on some conspiracy site, knock yourself out. But, it's not appropriate here.

 

[epirali]

not conspiracy at all. I think some chargers only check battery status at the beginning of the charge to determine the charge rate. This can result in a charge rate starting lower than it should have complete with taper....

Here is some useful information:

https://www.clippercreek.com/faqs/

A charging station implements several layers of redundant safety features to protect the user from potential electrical hazards while connecting and disconnecting the station to the vehicle for charging. Once connected to the vehicle the station will inform the vehicle that power is available and at what level. From that point the vehicle takes over, initiates and takes full control of the power transfer, unless an electrical fault occurs, in which case the station will stop the power transfer immediately.

https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/07/f18/vss142_pratt_2014_p.pdf

 

[wwhitney]

about that early charge taper; anyone else think it strange that happens more on a NRG (billed by the minute) than say AV ?(billed by the session)

My understanding is that for both L2 (AC ~240V) and L3/DCFC (DC ~300V - 400V) charging, the rate of charge (current drawn) is controlled by the car, up to the limitations of the charging equipment. In the case of L2, the rate of charge is determined by the on board charger, which is supposed to respect the current limit communicated by the EVSE. In the case of L3, the rate of charge is determined by the off board DCFC station, which is supposed to match the current requested by the car. Tapering occurs as the car reduces its requested rate of current, in response to the rising battery state of charge, temperature, and perhaps other parameters.

The only thing I can think of that would explain an observed difference in the rate of DCFC charge on an NRG charger versus another brand (of identical capacities) is the following: as I understand it, the NRG charger will only charge for 30 minutes, and then a new charge session must be started. Depending on the peculiarities of the car's charging algorithm, this might result in a lower requested charge current by the car during the second or third half hour on an NRG charger, versus the comparable time into a continuous charging session on another charger.

But this is pure speculation.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[TonyWilliams]

Moderators,

Can we have all the charging conspiracy theories taken out of the Bolt EV thread.

Thanks,

Tony

 

[wwhitney]

P.S. The reason I commented on this question is the data posted here:

http://boltev.blogspot.com/2017/01/dc-fast-charge-data.html

It suggests that the Bolt's DCFC rate is limited to about 45 kW from 0-55% SOC, about 37 kW from 55%-70% SOC, and about 22 kW from 70%-85% SOC. That's just one set of data from a 90 minute charge session split into 3 half hour pieces at an NRG charger. So I have wondered if the Bolt's computer really uses a discontinuous ramping algorithm like that, or if it is an artifact of the session being split into 3.

Anyway, I think actual data on the DCFC charge rate, like the above link, would be appropriate for this thread.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[TonyWilliams]

Anyway, I think actual data on the DCFC charge rate, like the above link, would be appropriate for this thread.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, data from the car is appropriate. Suggesting that any charger somehow manipulates the vehicle's request charge power for some nefarious reason, not appropriate.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

P.S. The reason I commented on this question is the data posted here:

http://boltev.blogspot.com/2017/01/dc-fast-charge-data.html

It suggests that the Bolt's DCFC rate is limited to about 45 kW from 0-55% SOC, about 37 kW from 55%-70% SOC, and about 22 kW from 70%-85% SOC. That's just one set of data from a 90 minute charge session split into 3 half hour pieces at an NRG charger. So I have wondered if the Bolt's computer really uses a discontinuous ramping algorithm like that, or if it is an artifact of the session being split into 3.

Anyway, I think actual data on the DCFC charge rate, like the above link, would be appropriate for this thread.

Cheers, Wayne

that is part of my argument. Its one thing when charging speeds of two stations are not equal but what happens when they "can be" equal?

so then we have the rate of charge each pack can take so "have" to think a Bolt with 2X larger pack would be able to charge much faster all the time compared to a measly 30 kwh LEAF, right?

But at an AV station, I am seeing this.



So explain to me how I am charging almost twice as fast at a higher SOC with a "midget" pack?

Again; not implying conspiracy. only that I am not seeing what I should be seeing. more to follow

 

[wwhitney]

So explain to me how I am charging almost twice as fast at a higher SOC with a "midget" pack?

If the data in question is accurate, then the answer is almost certainly that GM programmed the Bolt EV DCFC charging algorithm to be much conservative than the Nissan Leaf DCFC charging algorithm.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So explain to me how I am charging almost twice as fast at a higher SOC with a "midget" pack?

If the data in question is accurate, then the answer is almost certainly that GM programmed the Bolt EV DCFC charging algorithm to be much conservative than the Nissan Leaf DCFC charging algorithm.

Cheers, Wayne

actually missed part of the post. the 3 different charging sessions means 3 different evaluations of what the pack can take. My screenshot above is a single session that ran from 10 GIDs to 352 GIDs with ending charge rate of 14.7 KW

the multi sessions is prob causing it. But I have twice hit an NRG station at half speed when I should have been full speed initially. One time I charged for 30 mins and left with less than 60% SOC on a 24 kwh LEAF !

 

[edatoakrun]

The excellent Ioniq thread linked below takes a different look at the Bolt's relatively slow rate of long-distance travel, and comes to tentative conclusions very similar to that we reached by other methods:

Ioniq Electric vs Bolt Charging

Considering the Bolt’s optional Level3 SAE CCS DCFC. According to the various Bolt releases, it can be charged for 90 miles range in 30-minutes. This is ~ 38 percent of the 238 miles range in 30-minutes. If the EPA efficiency and range are correct, the Bolt’s actual usable pack capacity is 66 kWh calculated from the EPA rated (28 kWh/100 mi * 2.38) to cover its EPA rated 238 miles of range. This equates to the Bolt being charged at a maximum of 50 kW ((.38 * 66 kWh pack)/.5 hrs) from a Level3 DCFC. I have e-mails into two Chevrolet PR reps to receive clarification on this as the SAE CCS DCFC spec shows 50 or 100 kW charge capability?

The Ioniq Electric on the other hand can be charged from flat to 80 percent (99 of its 124 miles range) in 23 minutes at 100 kW – 30 minutes at 50 kW – from an SAE DCFC charging station. If the EPA efficiency and range are correct, the Ioniq Electric’s actual usable pack capacity is 31 kWh calculated from the EPA rated 25 kWh/100 mi * 1.24 to cover 124 miles. This equates to the Ioniq Electric being charged at a maximum of 66 kW ((.80 * 31 kWh)/.38 hrs) from a 100 kW Level3 DCFC.

To cover 1,000 miles in the Bolt (280 kWh) while charging at a maximum rate of 50 kW will take 5.6 hours of charge time. The Ioniq Electric (250 kWh) would take just 3.8 hours.

If you were attempting to travel a lengthy distance for example, the Bolt is going to take longer to charge/mile despite having a significant first charge distance advantage. This is not only because it is less efficient per the EPA but because it is charging at a 26 percent lower rate according to the published specs. This question still needs to be fully answered as a given pack does not charge at the same rate (C-Rate) at any capacity (it is not a straight line and slows significantly as the SoC increases) but the charge comparison between the Ioniq Electric and Bolt is evident...

http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/54013/page-2

 

[TonyWilliams]

So explain to me how I am charging almost twice as fast at a higher SOC with a "midget" pack?

If the data in question is accurate, then the answer is almost certainly that GM programmed the Bolt EV DCFC charging algorithm to be much conservative than the Nissan Leaf DCFC charging algorithm.

Cheers, Wayne

actually missed part of the post. the 3 different charging sessions means 3 different evaluations of what the pack can take. My screenshot above is a single session that ran from 10 GIDs to 352 GIDs with ending charge rate of 14.7 KW

the multi sessions is prob causing it. But I have twice hit an NRG station at half speed when I should have been full speed initially. One time I charged for 30 mins and left with less than 60% SOC on a 24 kwh LEAF !

Why are we discussing you LEAF charge sessions on the Bolt EV thread? Engineers from two separate companies, in two separate countries, on two separate continents, designed the software to control each car.

They're different. What GM has done, frankly, seems nutty. But, they did it nonetheless.

 

[lorenfb]

In the case of L3, the rate of charge is determined by the off board DCFC station, which is supposed to match the current requested by the car. Tapering occurs as the car reduces its requested rate of current, in response to the rising battery state of charge, temperature, and perhaps other parameters.

The DCFC station is basically a voltage source (very low output impedance) with current limiting, e.g. Vout = 500 VDC,
Imax = 100 Amps - 50kW. The BEV's on-board battery controller determines the amount of current being drawn
from the station over time. Just like with any controlled voltage source, once the max current limit is reached,
the output voltage of DCFC drops, i.e the battery controller can't draw more than 100 amps. Most likely the DCFC
utilizes a form of "foldback-current limiting" to prevent any damage to the DCFC once the max output current
is reached, e.g. a BEV's on-board battery controller failure. Furthermore, since the DCFC is obviously "dumb",
i.e. it does know the desired charging characteristics of each vehicle connected to it, the BEV's battery controller
controls the charging current tapers.

 

[Boomer23]

Happy to report that my little family of two are now driving all electric with the addition last Saturday (Feb 25) of a new Bolt EV to join our BMW i3. (Yes, the BMW has the range extender but we've only burned about 7 gallons in two years and 13,000 miles of driving it).

We got a beautiful Kinetic Blue Premier model with all the bells, whistles, safety features and DCFC that Chevy has to offer. Drove all the way up to Northridge to Rydell Chevy to take advantage of their no haggle $2500 discount. Figured we'd buy this EV instead of leasing because the lease rates aren't very appealing, and leasing two cars consecutively at those prices for 6 years would cost the same as buying it, but we would have zero equity at that point. The car's range autonomy is so good that even if it loses some capacity over the next six years, it'll still meet most of our needs.

For those still unaware, this Bolt Visit the Chevy Bolt EVEV has a full 60 kWh pack for as little as $38k before incentives. EPA range is 238 miles and combined MPGe is 119. That's Tesla range with BMW i3 efficiency at Leaf prices! DCFC is by CCS, in my mind, the car's glaring disadvantage compared with Tesla, along with lack of Autopilot, radar cruise control and over the air updates.

We love the car. It is so chock full of clever design and features. While not as roomy front-to-rear as the Prius, it has the Prius beat in every other interior space measure, including the utility of the rear storage space. There is a false floor below which we can keep the messy stuff like the fabric shopping bags and the first aid kit and emergency tire pump. Above the false floor is a clear, clean area to haul the groceries or luggage. Passenger space both front and rear is roomy, much like a Leaf.

Favorite features, some of which are optional or part of the Premier trim level, include the rear view camera monitor that displays on the surface of the interior rear view mirror, blind spot alerts that display in the side view mirrors, rear cross traffic alert for backing out of parking spots, four-camera surround-view overhead integrated view of the car for low speed maneuvering and precision parking placement, Apple Car Play or Android Auto for GPS Nav and other apps in the car's large center display, adjustable regen and creep via the shifter for true one-pedal driving with strong regen and extra strong regen whenever desired via a steering wheel paddle, a Sport mode that sharpens accelerator mapping for truly fun driving, SELF SEALING Michelin tires.

I'll have the car at the next two So Cal Saturday breakfast meet ups in March: March 8 at the Industry Hills Golden Corral and March 18 at the Santa Ana Hometown Buffet on 17th Street. Meet ups run 8 am to about noon. Drop in any time.

 

[sparky]

All electric. Congrats Boomer!
A couple questions:
One thing I noted in my Bolt test drive (also Premium package) was how much trouble the rear view "mirror" gave me with having to re-focus from the road to the screen. Did you find that issue goes away? And does it work well at night?
Did you cancel your Model 3 res? If so, get the $1k back yet?
Do you think your rooftop PV will cover the extra kWhs? (ok that's 3,4,5 questions).