Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[GetOffYourGas]

All of the actual data in the GCR article is from a 125A charger, in support of what Tony said. They mention the 80kW claim which, reading between the lines, I assume to be 200A/400V nominal. The chargers seem to be normally rated at 500V so it would be a "100kW" charger.

So we are still left waiting to see how the Bolt behaves on a true 200A charger. I'm sure it won't be long since there are some out there which support that kind of current.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... the 80kW claim which, reading between the lines, I assume to be 200A/400V nominal. The chargers seem to be normally rated at 500V so it would be a "100kW" .

All the CHAdeMO compliant chargers are 50-500 volt capable.

Ther are no cars sold with a battery over 400V, plus or minus 5V.

The 400 volt reference would be maximum battery voltage, as is 200 amps the maximum.

Nominal might be about 360 volts.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

... the 80kW claim which, reading between the lines, I assume to be 200A/400V nominal. The chargers seem to be normally rated at 500V so it would be a "100kW" .

All the CHAdeMO compliant chargers are 50-500 volt capable.

Ther are no cars sold with a battery over 400V, plus or minus 5V.

The 400 volt reference would be maximum battery voltage, as is 200 amps the maximum.

Nominal might be about 360 volts.

Yes, I was referring to the car and not the charger. We know the chargers are rated at 500V. I am assuming that GM's 80kW figure comes from the car's "400V" battery. I thought that was clear, but thanks for clarifying.

 

[evnow]

Exactly. The Bolt is the first BEV that can provide reasonable transportation value for money if you buy it. Not because it can go 200+ miles now, but because most people will still be able to use it do their commute/routine local driving ten or twelve years from now, and because it will still have value as a used car for that purpose at 6 to 8 years of age. Low 100 mile range BEVs almost certainly can't do that, except in areas with benign climates for owners who have minimal range needs. For those cars, leasing remains the smart choice.

Except Bolt is a poor long drive car (what with bad seats and all).

Literally any next gen BEV with 200+ miles range we'll get in the next 2 years will beat Bolt in terms of creature comforts and build quality and will be available for some $5k less.

Instead of actually making an affordable long range BEV - GM is going with the strategy of maximizing short term profits. Those who buy Bolt at MSRP won't be happy campers a year or so down the road (infact not even 6 months when Bolt will get discounted heavily).

A good recent example is Leaf 30 kwh. Nissan priced them too high when people like me wanted to get it - and lost us as customers.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I don't think the Bolt EV's seat are uncomfortable. Most people I have heard from feel the same as I do. Some people do have a problem, but I think they are in the minority.

 

[jjeff]

I don't think the Bolt EV's seat are uncomfortable. Most people I have heard from feel the same as I do. Some people do have a problem, but I think they are in the minority.

I think whether you think the Bolt seats are uncomfortable depends on your stature, thinner more athletic people seem to think the Bolt seats are just fine, heavier people tend to think the Bolt stats are uncomfortable. As 30??% of the Americal public are obese and 60%?? (WAG on my numbers but I believe they are in line) are overweight, I really wonder why Chevy designed a car for such a small percent of the American public.....well unless they weren't really designing it for Americans, rather the export market.......
IMO the Volt is even more cramped than the Bolt but in the end neither were to my liking which is a shame as on paper both are very attractive and if they had more room I'd probably be driving either over my Leaf, which is soooo roomy compared to either of the Chevys.

 

[GRA]

Exactly. The Bolt is the first BEV that can provide reasonable transportation value for money if you buy it. Not because it can go 200+ miles now, but because most people will still be able to use it do their commute/routine local driving ten or twelve years from now, and because it will still have value as a used car for that purpose at 6 to 8 years of age. Low 100 mile range BEVs almost certainly can't do that, except in areas with benign climates for owners who have minimal range needs. For those cars, leasing remains the smart choice.

Except Bolt is a poor long drive car (what with bad seats and all).

I consider the long range a bonus for the first several years of ownership, not a factor in whether or not it provides reasonable transportation value - for most people, it can't be the sole car, so its long-term value is as a commuter/local errand runabout. As for the seats, comfort depends on a person's body type (I'm thin so it probably wouldn't be a problem for me, but I haven't sat in one yet to say for sure), and seats can always be swapped out. When I drove a Think City almost twenty years ago, it was equipped with Recaro seats with aggressive side and thigh bolsters which simply had no business in the car considering what it was designed for. I'm sure some after-market companies will develop seats for the Bolt that are more comfortable for those of wider build than the OEM ones if the demand is there, if GM doesn't do so itself. Given the number of complaints, I expect we'll see such OEM seats in the mid-life update if not sooner.

Literally any next gen BEV with 200+ miles range we'll get in the next 2 years will beat Bolt in terms of creature comforts and build quality and will be available for some $5k less.

Possible but not certain, but that doesn't change the fact that the Bolt is available and provides reasonable value for transportation now. That products which appear later are usually cheaper or better is a given.

Instead of actually making an affordable long range BEV - GM is going with the strategy of maximizing short term profits. Those who buy Bolt at MSRP won't be happy campers a year or so down the road (infact not even 6 months when Bolt will get discounted heavily).

A good recent example is Leaf 30 kwh. Nissan priced them too high when people like me wanted to get it - and lost us as customers.

That's the price of being early adopters. Those of us who aren't willing to pay a premium know that we just have to wait awhile for the initial frenzy to die down, when prices adjust to a sustainable level.

 

[GRA]

All of the actual data in the GCR article is from a 125A charger, in support of what Tony said. They mention the 80kW claim which, reading between the lines, I assume to be 200A/400V nominal. The chargers seem to be normally rated at 500V so it would be a "100kW" charger.

So we are still left waiting to see how the Bolt behaves on a true 200A charger. I'm sure it won't be long since there are some out there which support that kind of current.

Re the bolded section, of course it's from a 125A charger, but it's rather hard to believe that a charge profile which ramps down that early on a 50kW charger will ramp down later at a higher charge rate, which will heat the battery more. After all, the whole point of the ramp down is to protect the battery - otherwise, they could charge at max. current all the way to full if they had a high enough charging voltage to force it.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

All of the actual data in the GCR article is from a 125A charger, in support of what Tony said. They mention the 80kW claim which, reading between the lines, I assume to be 200A/400V nominal. The chargers seem to be normally rated at 500V so it would be a "100kW" charger.

So we are still left waiting to see how the Bolt behaves on a true 200A charger. I'm sure it won't be long since there are some out there which support that kind of current.

Re the bolded section, of course it's from a 125A charger, but it's rather hard to believe that a charge profile which ramps down that early on a 50kW charger will ramp down later at a higher charge rate, which will heat the battery more. After all, the whole point of the ramp down is to protect the battery - otherwise, they could charge at max. current all the way to full if they had a high enough charging voltage to force it.

I agree with you 100% and never stated anything to the contrary. The biggest question in my mind is how much sooner (if at all) will the car ramp down from a 200A charge rate?

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The seats can be changed out, but it's stuck with a resistance heater for now. And I'd like to know how much the battery TMS draws when it's not plugged in, at various ambient temperatures. There's no battery temperature display.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

One of the dealers posted in the local Bolt FB group posted that it is $650 to $720 (w/ 2,300 down).

For a car that is highly touted as "affordable", at those prices (for a lease no less!), it is decidedly not.

@Dave, we will have to agree to disagree. I find the numbers perfectly acceptable for a medium-range trip of 300-400 miles (i.e. less than 2x the full-charge range, maybe two additional 30-minute charging stops). And therefore I think the car is very usable for trips greater than 200 miles.

well all have our levels of acceptance and mine is high concerning EVs. But there is already Bolters who are not as understanding. But they are only in a place "we" occupied 6 years ago. They just need to realize that.

As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03/road-trip-adventures-of-9-tb-journey.html

 

[dgpcolorado]

The seats can be changed out, but it's stuck with a resistance heater for now. And I'd like to know how much the battery TMS draws when it's not plugged in, at various ambient temperatures. There's no battery temperature display.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that a resistance heater in a 60 kWh car is irrelevant for most uses. With a car that has such a long range, the hit from the heater and TMS simply doesn't matter because most people aren't going to stretch the range on a daily basis. Being free from range and heater worries is the point of longer range cars: charge it to 90%, go about your business, use the heater and AC as much as you want, and don't worry about it. It is a completely different mindset compared to the small battery LEAF. Been there, done that.

The only time such things matter for most people is on road trips and the Bolt isn't really a road trip car, given the dearth of reliable DCFC stations that can serve it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The seats can be changed out, but it's stuck with a resistance heater for now. And I'd like to know how much the battery TMS draws when it's not plugged in, at various ambient temperatures. There's no battery temperature display.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that a resistance heater in a 60 kWh car is irrelevant for most uses. With a car that has such a long range, the hit from the heater and TMS simply doesn't matter because most people aren't going to stretch the range on a daily basis. Being free from range and heater worries is the point of longer range cars: charge it to 90%, go about your business, use the heater and AC as much as you want, and don't worry about it. It is a completely different mindset compared to the small battery LEAF. Been there, done that.

The only time such things matter for most people is on road trips and the Bolt isn't really a road trip car, given the dearth of reliable DCFC stations that can serve it.

yeah but I think its also important to point out that Chevy is doing the same thing Nissan did 6 years ago. Minimal public charging support, cheapo tech, high prices, poor incentives and thinking the Bolt "provides everything anyone would want" attitude...

Just saying...

 

[edatoakrun]

The Bolt is the first BEV that can provide reasonable transportation value for money if you buy it. Not because it can go 200+ miles now, but because most people will still be able to use it do their commute/routine local driving ten or twelve years from now...

It is a very foolish proposition to pay for a larger pack than you need today, just so you will have sufficient capacity in ten or twelve years.

The primary reason the Bolt is so overpriced and lease costs are so high is that the most rapidly depreciating component in any BEV-the battery pack- is oversize relative to the Bolt's overall value and utility.

Had a LEAF been offered with an optional ~ 30 kWh pack ~six years ago, and I'd bought one just so I'd still have ~ 24 kWh left in my LEAF today, my total cost of ownership over ten or twelve years would surely have been been far higher than just selling my 2011 LEAF and buying a new ~30 kWh LEAF (or Soul, Focus E, Golf E, Ioniq, etc) today, and driving it anotherfour or six years.

And I'd be driving a better, newer BEV with a much higher capacity pack for the next four or six years, than if I'd wasted my money by hoarding batteries back in 2011...

...you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump...

For any BEV, each additional kWh of battery pack has diminishing returns in benefits and increasingly degrades performance in terms of cost and economy.

Current high battery costs and low energy density determines it just does not make sense to try to load ~66 kWh into a small economy car like the Bolt.

More competition for the Bolt will show up in ~another year, when full-sized luxury BEVs with similar or larger packs hit the market with marginal costs not too much higher than the Bolt.

for example, it's entirely possible that Jaguar will introduce the I-Pace, an AWD luxury performance vehicle with a ~90 kWh pack, at a starting list price only $15 to $20 k higher for sale, or leased for only a a few $ hundred more a month, than the Bolt.

Jaguar I-PACE BESUV available 2018

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22545

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Generally, the resistance heater is irrelevant in a 60 kWh car, but then all things are relative. I'm only 10 miles from work and have L2 there, so even when I had the '12 with it's resistance heater, I could drive and heat mindlessly. But I'm already seeing reports on the Bolt forum of people who expected to get 200 miles and aren't, partly on their driving style of course, but also some reports claim the heater can draw 9 kW. 9 kW! That's a hell of a heater.

And while the Bolt will display tire pressures without a spy app, not displaying battery temperature isn't helpful. Also, a simple kWh remaining display would've been nice. I'd like OEMs to give a driver more info, not less.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

As far as charging speed? If your only experience is with a 24 kwh LEAF, you really would be shocked at the huge leap in usability of the 30 kwh LEAF. Most can't see past the minimal 6 kwh bump. Trust me, there is a lot more there!

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/03/road-trip-adventures-of-9-tb-journey.html

Usability is all relative. And it's about the combination of range and charging speed.

Check out Syracuse NY on Plugshare. There is all of 1 CHAdeMO within 100 miles of me, in Ithaca. A city I visit maybe once or twice a year? Otherwise, the range of a 30kWh Leaf would not cover a significantly larger number of my annual miles than a 24kWh Leaf.

But there is a cluster of CCS/CHAdeMO chargers in Albany, about 150 miles away. A Bolt would easily get there. The return would be trickier since I'd have to charge up past the taper point, but it's doable. It's just not possible in a 30kWh Leaf. And Albany is a mid-point for most of the places that I travel. Every direction other than west has a DCQC within reasonable distance. So yeah, going out is easy. Returning home has one tricky leg - the last one. And a 30kWh Leaf is just as useless as a 24kWh Leaf on those trips.

 

[ElectricEddy]

not displaying battery temperature isn't helpful. Also, a simple kWh remaining display would've been nice. I'd like OEMs to give a driver more info, not less.

Agreed, does Tesla do this?

 

[dgpcolorado]

not displaying battery temperature isn't helpful. Also, a simple kWh remaining display would've been nice. I'd like OEMs to give a driver more info, not less.

Agreed, does Tesla do this?

Tesla does not display battery temperature directly but it does clearly display regen and power limits, in kW, when the battery is cold (or full, in the case of regen), which is the important thing to a driver. As with other EVs, charging right before driving in cold weather helps warm the battery and increase the regen and power available. Maximum regen is 60 kW and maximum power in my S60 — the slowest Tesla made — is 240 kW.

Tesla displays battery remaining in % capacity or "rated miles" (RM). The latter is a measuring scale based on EPA range and serves as a direct proxy for battery capacity remaining. Tesla also displays energy use for a trip, in kWh, and over several user-selected distances, in Wh/mile. For my car (it varies with the model) the RM is based on about 300 Wh/mile.

Even more important for road trips — critical, I'd say — is that Tesla displays a trip plot that shows how much capacity, in percent, is expected to be left when one reaches the destination, usually the next Supercharger Station. It is hard to overstate the importance of this tool: if one is falling below the plotted line, for whatever reason, one can slow down; the car will even suggest keeping below a certain speed if the projected energy at the destination is too low. This tool also serves as a guide for charging since it lets one know when one has enough charge to make the next Supercharger station plus a buffer. The energy plot does have its quirks: I've found that it does not compensate well for high speed limit roads and that I need an extra buffer for speeds above about 70 mph (but it works well for speeds at 65 mph or lower). It also can't predict wind, rain/snow, HVAC use and the like. But just watching the plot as one drives will allow one to adjust for that.

^ This is an example of a trip plot from the Denver Supercharger Station, elevation 5384 feet, to the Silverthorne Supercharger Station, elevation 8772 feet. The dip in the plot is the high point of the trip through the Eisenhower Tunnel, elevation 11,158 feet. You can see the projected energy remaining at each point in the trip. As one drives it shows a plot of the current position and energy; if falling below the projection one can slow down or, if one's buffer was large enough, just continue on and get to the destination with reduced energy left.

 

[GRA]

The Bolt is the first BEV that can provide reasonable transportation value for money if you buy it. Not because it can go 200+ miles now, but because most people will still be able to use it do their commute/routine local driving ten or twelve years from now...

It is a very foolish proposition to pay for a larger pack than you need today, just so you will have sufficient capacity in ten or twelve years.

The primary reason the Bolt is so overpriced and lease costs are so high is that the most rapidly depreciating component in any BEV-the battery pack- is oversize relative to the Bolt's overall value and utility.

Had a LEAF been offered with an optional ~ 30 kWh pack ~six years ago, and I'd bought one just so I'd still have ~ 24 kWh left in my LEAF today, my total cost of ownership over ten or twelve years would surely have been been far higher than just selling my 2011 LEAF and buying a new ~30 kWh LEAF (or Soul, Focus E, Golf E, Ioniq, etc) today, and driving it anotherfour or six years.

And I'd be driving a better, newer BEV with a much higher capacity pack for the next four or six years, than if I'd wasted my money by hoarding batteries back in 2011...

Given the depreciation experienced by all cars, I suspect your claims are inaccurate, but in any case, your usage profiles are far different from most people's. You are content to drive your LEAF on longish trips at speeds that most people consider unacceptable. That a longer-ranged BEV allows them to ignore the speedometer for most trips and just drive the car is a huge advantage in usability for the average buyer.

So, while the above may well be the case for you, it isn't for the majority of potential buyers, as any perusal of how much range people here said they wanted from their cars over the past 6 years would show, and these are people more willing to put up with compromises than the average buyer.

However, I do agree with you that long-range BEVs for road trips simply don't make economic sense at this time, given that mainstream customers now have access to PHEVs at a lower price, with a variety of ranges adequate for all their local driving, while allowing them to freely drive anywhere they want using the gasoline infrastructure at a price that (Tesla aside) is generally cheaper per mile than paying for public charging.

 

[GRA]

Brad Berman at plugincars.com's take:

Why Is the 238-Mile Chevy Bolt Not Selling Like Hotcakes?

http://plugincars.com/why-238-mile-chevy-bolt-not-selling-hotcakes-132776.html

. . . For years, common wisdom suggested that high purchase prices and low driving range were holding back EV sales. But the Chevy Bolt—with 238 miles of range and a post-incentive price around $30,000—was supposed to change all that when it went on sale last December. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case. . . .

The assumption is that long-range EVs like the Bolt still are not useful for long road trips because drivers don’t have ready access to charging stations along major highway routes. Tesla addressed that issue with its proprietary Supercharger network, but it has not yet been tackled by any other automaker.

Superchargers also require Tesla owners to take specific routes to refuel and to stop for longer than drivers of gas-powered cars. But the availability of those chargers has apparently been enough—along with sleek, attractive designs and a powerhouse brand—to make Tesla the number one seller of EVs (even with its big sticker prices).

Chevy doesn’t have the same stellar brand perception—at least not for EVs. Green Car Reports tells readers that General Motors sells more units of its loud, powerful and iconic Camaro than supposedly breakthrough cars like the Chevy Bolt. The website suggests that Chevy dealers might have an easier time selling Camaros because they are perceived as more fun to drive.

In other words, the goal posts keep receding for EVs. They are no longer small, underpowered and lacking in range. They don’t carry huge price tags or look exceptionally geeky. But the perception of them as compromised by lack of infrastructure and inconvenient for road trips is now reason enough to stay on the sidelines. . . .