BillyM
Active member
Does power flow through EVSEs when not charging a car? Is there any risk of electrocution for a child playing with one, whether charging a car or not? I'm wondering if It would help to have the 240V have a GFCI.
Child Safety
- Thread starter BillyM
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No, by design there is a required "interlock" feature in all non-portable EVSEs that de-energizes the plug when not connected -- 2011 NEC Article 625.18 (Electric Vehicle Charging System -- Equipment Construction -- Interlock) "Electric vehicle supply equipment shall be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric vehicle connector and its cable whenever the electrical connector is uncoupled from the electric vehicle. An interlock shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.". I believe the portable EVSE that comes with every Leaf does have this interlock anyway, for additional safety.
Nissan warns with their portable EVSE: "Never let a child handle or use it. Keep children away when not in use.". No EVSE is a toy and the J1772 plug can be damaged by a child sticking things up into it, even if it cannot shock them.
The "interlock" protection is only on the charging plug J1772 side of the EVSE, not the Nema plug side, so YES, a GFCI would be very beneficial to increasing safety for the receptacle used by a cord-and-plug-connected EVSE -- although a 240v GFCI can cost around $100. I would say it is particularly important if the floor underneath the receptacle is occasionally wet and/or there is a grounding metal within its reach -- which would include metal conduit (if used) to the receptacle itself (required by code to be bonded to ground, I believe). I believe all EVSEs listed for use with cord-and-plug have an all-nonconducting exterior for this reason, BTW. There is, however, a possible (likelihood not established, that I have seen) downside of "nuisance" trips, that could leave a car incompletely charged. Most (all?) EVSEs have GFI, but it only protects the J1772 side (cable and plug). BTW this is a major reason why a "direct wired" EVSE is considered safer to use over a cord-and-plug-connected EVSE -- and they don't need a GFCI breaker.
For a cord-and-plug-connected EVSE that is normally left plugged in much of the time, I would also highly recommend using a locked plastic cover over the receptacle to discourage children from playing with that (even if the EVSE is not present), especially if as noted above it is in a electrically hazardous location, and definitely if it is not GFCI protected.
Nissan warns with their portable EVSE: "Never let a child handle or use it. Keep children away when not in use.". No EVSE is a toy and the J1772 plug can be damaged by a child sticking things up into it, even if it cannot shock them.
The "interlock" protection is only on the charging plug J1772 side of the EVSE, not the Nema plug side, so YES, a GFCI would be very beneficial to increasing safety for the receptacle used by a cord-and-plug-connected EVSE -- although a 240v GFCI can cost around $100. I would say it is particularly important if the floor underneath the receptacle is occasionally wet and/or there is a grounding metal within its reach -- which would include metal conduit (if used) to the receptacle itself (required by code to be bonded to ground, I believe). I believe all EVSEs listed for use with cord-and-plug have an all-nonconducting exterior for this reason, BTW. There is, however, a possible (likelihood not established, that I have seen) downside of "nuisance" trips, that could leave a car incompletely charged. Most (all?) EVSEs have GFI, but it only protects the J1772 side (cable and plug). BTW this is a major reason why a "direct wired" EVSE is considered safer to use over a cord-and-plug-connected EVSE -- and they don't need a GFCI breaker.
For a cord-and-plug-connected EVSE that is normally left plugged in much of the time, I would also highly recommend using a locked plastic cover over the receptacle to discourage children from playing with that (even if the EVSE is not present), especially if as noted above it is in a electrically hazardous location, and definitely if it is not GFCI protected.
BillyM
Active member
Thanks Mike. So if I understand correctly, the risk is of equipment damage, not bodily injury, right?
KillaWhat
Well-known member
BillyM said:
NO, there is NO power in the EVSE cord or plug when It is not attached to a Car.
That "Clunk" you hear at the end of the "Beeps" is the EVSE's contactor closing to supply power to the Plug end.
On good EVSE, as soon as you depress the release button on the J1772, the proximity detection shuts the power off even before you start to pull it out.
If not, as soon as it looses the pilot signal (the little pins in the plug) it again shuts off the power.
Most (all?) EVSE have internal GFCI ground leak detection.
Now for one of MY pet EVSE peeves, and it seems to be getting more common.
DON'T PUT THESE F'n things on Dryer outlets, or any other outlet for that matter.
(With the exception of the EVSE Upgrade, which has a twist lock cord)
There is ALWAYS power there.
There is NO GFCI protection there!
And a Toddler can get that "Dryer Plug" attached to Daddy's cool toy just about half way out, exposing the long plug prongs while it's still very hot, and ....PffffT!
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
Hell, I hardwired my actual Dryer
Why not?
You will notice it didn't come with a Plug, you had to HARDWIRE one on.
BillyM
Active member
KillaWhat said:
For portability I am considering the plug-in type, which it sounds like you're against. Would having a GFCI in the outlet make you more supportive of this type?
Leviton's website says a GFCI isn't needed in the outlet, so I'm a little confused (2nd question on the page:
http://honda.leviton.com/infocenter/evse-fact-sheet
KillaWhat
Well-known member
BillyM said:
I think that if an EVSE with GFCI is installed on a circuit that has an additional GFCI it will cause problems.
I remember Aeronvironment (AV) specifically warned against GFCI circuits for their units.
Screw it to a wall, run wiring into it and leave it there.
If you want a 240VAC portable, and that’s a valid desire, get an EVSE upgrade.
It was designed to be portable.
(plus, when your giant wall mounted EVSE blows a frankenscweiner diode, you have a spare L2 capable backup ready to go.)
Who wants some giant EVSE POS clunky thing rattling around in the back, taking up what little storage we have.
Sticking a dryer plug on it doesn’t make it a portable..
rcyoder
Well-known member
I can't resist...
The inductive charge paddles found on EV1s, S10 EVs, Nissan Altra, Nissan Hypermini and "classic" (1997-2003) RAV4-EVs are the safest of all. My daughter was plugging them in when she was 2 and never a worry from her parents.
No exposed electrical contacts = no possibility of shock at the plug end.
That said, I'd rather have a single plug standard for all vehicles, one that allows for people to use a household outlet easily. (My wife gripes whenever she has to plug my Leaf in, she'd much rather slip the paddle into her RAV4-EV.)
The inductive charge paddles found on EV1s, S10 EVs, Nissan Altra, Nissan Hypermini and "classic" (1997-2003) RAV4-EVs are the safest of all. My daughter was plugging them in when she was 2 and never a worry from her parents.
No exposed electrical contacts = no possibility of shock at the plug end.That said, I'd rather have a single plug standard for all vehicles, one that allows for people to use a household outlet easily. (My wife gripes whenever she has to plug my Leaf in, she'd much rather slip the paddle into her RAV4-EV.)
KillaWhat
Well-known member
:shock:
:shock:
Naughty!
davewill
Well-known member
I think you're just being paranoid. There have been a couple of times I've been glad I could just pull the plug on my dryer, or tell my wife to do so over the phone (Honey! it's making a funny smell...). Every professional install I've ever seen has put a plug on the dryer. I'm pretty sure the only reason they don't come with plugs is because there are at least two common plugs and they manufacturer doesn't know which one you'll need, not because they recommend hard wiring it.KillaWhat said:
Finally, Blink used a plug and receptacle (a 6-50, not locking) for my EVSE install...which didn't bother the electrician or the city inspector...and doesn't bother me. A dryer plug is no less safe.
KillaWhat
Well-known member
davewill said:
To each his own. No criticism.
It took me 5 seconds to tear that dryer plug off my Blink and hardwire it.
My wife can throw the well marked breaker if the dryer smells funny.
I don't want her pulling the dryer plug either if it's still hot.
And yes, I'm paranoid
A mistake the toddler will only make once, one way or another!KillaWhat said:
But seriously, dryer plugs are, at least in my experience, either behind the dryer and/or 40+ inches off the floor. If you are sharing a plug outlet with the dryer there doesn't seem much chance a toddler will be able to get to it unless you're leaving the kid on top of the machine... in which case maybe you're already setting yourself up for trouble.
In addition to that, the plugs tend to be somewhat harder to pull out than your typical wall socket. A large stumpy plug body that is larger than a typical toddler's hand (requiring both hands to grab) and needing a fair amount of force to pry out. Certainly not foolproof but less likely to happen.
At worst, if you're still really worried about it, you can either redo the plug for by a twist type or simply get a latching cover or other mechanism to resist pullout.
=Smidge=
KillaWhat
Well-known member
Smidge204 said:
Or, save all that time, expense, worry, cost of a plug and receptacle... and hardwire it in.
Jeeze... are we losing all our skills?
It would take just about the same amount of time, at minimal additional cost, to install an outlet (and plug if your EVSE does not have one). As for worry - there isn't any! It's not even a question of skill since it takes just as much skill to do either option...KillaWhat said:
Meanwhile you at least get the convenience of being able to quickly, easily and safely remove the EVSE for any reason, and/or a 240V outlet to use for anything else. Maybe my EVSE can share a circuit with my welder, so I can just unplug and go? :lol:
=Smidge=
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