Deciding between two 2013 Leafs: lower miles or more bars? (Need answer fast!)

[commasense]

Thanks, LeftieBiker. I took a picture of the window sticker of the Silver, which shows it has a "6.0 kW" charger. I didn't get a shot of the other one, but there's no reason to assume that it doesn't have 6.6 kW charging, is there? (Obviously, I'll make sure when I go back.)

So what is your reason for suggesting I pass on the white one?

I'm going to ask the salesman why he thinks these cars have lizard packs, but a according to another thread here, there's no way to tell other than checking the car's history with a Nissan dealer, right?

 

[jjeff]

All Leafs charge at the same rate on L-1, but L-2 charging away from home is much slower with the 3.3kw cars.

Not to nitpick.....but out of accuracy, '11 and '12 Leafs only charge at 12a L1(15a 240v L2) and not sure about '13 and on S models w/o the upgraded charger but my '13S w/upgraded charger will charge at the same maximum L2 current(27.5a) at L1. Yes 27.5a@120v or 240v. To me this has come in quite handy where I had access to a 30a TT-30(120v) outlet. 120v@24a is the same power as 12a@240v
Of course you need a EVSE capable of outputting more than 12a@120v but thats where I like my JuiceBox Premium EVSE that goes well past 27.5a@ either voltage. Older EVSEupgrade'd EVSE would top out @ 19a 120v(again on vehicles capable of more than 12a) but newer models stop at 12a or 16a if you purchase the optional 20a 120v power cord adapter from EVSEupgrade.
My Ebusbar EVSE is also capable of 15a at either 240v or 120v but quite a few L2 EVSEs only work on 240v.
AFAIK the "Lizard" battery pack came out in '15 although most people believe the '13 and on(mfg. after 3/'13) has similar longer lasting chemistry, although the actual "lizard" may hold up better in high heat situations??
Of course if you have a older Leaf that has had the battery replaced under warranty it will most likely have the new "lizard" pack.

 

[baustin]

Thanks, LeftieBiker. I took a picture of the window sticker of the Silver, which shows it has a "6.0 kW" charger. I didn't get a shot of the other one, but there's no reason to assume that it doesn't have 6.6 kW charging, is there? (Obviously, I'll make sure when I go back.)

So what is your reason for suggesting I pass on the white one?

I'm going to ask the salesman why he thinks these cars have lizard packs, but a according to another thread here, there's no way to tell other than checking the car's history with a Nissan dealer, right?

Ask the salesman to gauge his response and honesty. The 'Lizard' pack was introduced for the 2015 model year. The only way a 2013 model would have one is if it was replaced under the battery capacity warranty, which neither of those have qualified for, yet. The models produced from 4/13 onward have a better chemistry, than the original packs, and would be the vehicles to look at for purchase.

The battery in the car with one bar lost (2/13 build) will degrade faster in the Vegas heat. The odds of losing four bars before hitting the end of the battery warranty are very slim.

Since you are not in a hurry, cast a wide net. You can buy one further away and rent a trailer from uHaul to bring it home. Use Autotrader to search. Many of those listings also let you see the CarFax report for free. You can call the Nissan EV Center (877-NOGASEV) with the VIN number of any Leaf and they will give you the service history, and other details, on the car. Also, the Leaf in Phoenix is a red one.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Not to nitpick.....but out of accuracy, '11 and '12 Leafs only charge at 12a L1(15a 240v L2) and not sure about '13 and on S models w/o the upgraded charger but my '13S w/upgraded charger will charge at the same maximum L2 current(27.5a) at L1. Yes 27.5a@120v or 240v. To me this has come in quite handy where I had access to a 30a TT-30(120v) outlet. 120v@24a is the same power as 12a@240v

The above is why I just assume that people will be using the OEM Nissan EVSE, and tell them that they all charge at the same rate, because they all do charge at 12 amps on L-1 without both a modified EVSE and a high-capacity 120 volt circuit, except for those who foolishly try to set the EVSE Upgrade unit to 16 amps on a 15 amp circuit. ;-)

 

[LeftieBiker]

Thanks, LeftieBiker. I took a picture of the window sticker of the Silver, which shows it has a "6.0 kW" charger. I didn't get a shot of the other one, but there's no reason to assume that it doesn't have 6.6 kW charging, is there? (Obviously, I'll make sure when I go back.)

So what is your reason for suggesting I pass on the white one?

Sorry, there is no reason to assume otherwise. There are a bunch of topics at the moment with people looking at used Leafs, and I confused yours with one in which 2012 leafs were involved. The 6.6kw charger was first installed in 2013, in all models except the un-optioned (I think the Charge Package is the only option package for the S) Leaf S.

 

[commasense]

Thanks all for the advice. After our initial excitement about the possibility of buying a Leaf this week, we've calmed down and decided to wait a bit.

The main reason is that we want to get a better idea of the market here in Las Vegas. At the moment, there are only three used Leafs for sale in the Las Vegas valley. Having only been on the lookout for three days, and not needing to buy immediately, we have decided to wait at least a few weeks (maybe months) and get a better picture of what constitutes a good deal here.

It didn't help that the car we were most interested in was white, our least favorite color.

Since you are not in a hurry, cast a wide net. You can buy one further away and rent a trailer from uHaul to bring it home.

Interesting idea, but being in Vegas, our nearest other options are in California, at least 200 miles away. I suspect that the cost and time involved in buying elsewhere would pretty much offset any possible savings. We might be able to get exactly the car we want (color, trim, mileage, etc.), but probably at something of a premium.

Has anyone here ever negotiated a deal by phone, long-distance? Can you really bargain without being there in person and expect the dealer not to add a surprise $500 "dealer prep charge" when you arrive after a four-hour drive with the trailer? ISTM that your best bargaining position is the ability to walk out the door if you don't get what you want. Easy to do in your home town, out of state, not so much.

So you could probably call the dealer and say, "I'll pay your asking price for that black leaf, charge my credit card for $500 to hold it, I'll be there on Saturday afternoon to check it out and pick it up." But you'd have almost no leverage to bargain for less than the asking price or to get a reduction if you find something about the car you don't like. Am I wrong about this?

 

[Reddy]

Thanks all for the advice. After our initial excitement about the possibility of buying a Leaf this week, we've calmed down and decided to wait a bit.

The main reason is that we want to get a better idea of the market here in Las Vegas. At the moment, there are only three used Leafs for sale in the Las Vegas valley. Having only been on the lookout for three days, and not needing to buy immediately, we have decided to wait at least a few weeks (maybe months) and get a better picture of what constitutes a good deal here.

Good choice! I'd recommend that you go to National Drive Electric Week. Spend the entire time talking to owners to get the good & bad of different types of EVs. Maybe you'll end up with a good, low-priced Leaf, maybe a higher priced Volt, maybe something else. Knowledge is key. Good luck.
https://driveelectricweek.org/event.php?eventid=590

 

[commasense]

Thanks very much, Reddy! We're signed up. The timing is perfect for us!

 

[Firetruck41]

Thanks all for the advice. After our initial excitement about the possibility of buying a Leaf this week, we've calmed down and decided to wait a bit.

The main reason is that we want to get a better idea of the market here in Las Vegas. At the moment, there are only three used Leafs for sale in the Las Vegas valley. Having only been on the lookout for three days, and not needing to buy immediately, we have decided to wait at least a few weeks (maybe months) and get a better picture of what constitutes a good deal here.

It didn't help that the car we were most interested in was white, our least favorite color.

Since you are not in a hurry, cast a wide net. You can buy one further away and rent a trailer from uHaul to bring it home.

Interesting idea, but being in Vegas, our nearest other options are in California, at least 200 miles away. I suspect that the cost and time involved in buying elsewhere would pretty much offset any possible savings. We might be able to get exactly the car we want (color, trim, mileage, etc.), but probably at something of a premium.

Has anyone here ever negotiated a deal by phone, long-distance? Can you really bargain without being there in person and expect the dealer not to add a surprise $500 "dealer prep charge" when you arrive after a four-hour drive with the trailer? ISTM that your best bargaining position is the ability to walk out the door if you don't get what you want. Easy to do in your home town, out of state, not so much.

So you could probably call the dealer and say, "I'll pay your asking price for that black leaf, charge my credit card for $500 to hold it, I'll be there on Saturday afternoon to check it out and pick it up." But you'd have almost no leverage to bargain for less than the asking price or to get a reduction if you find something about the car you don't like. Am I wrong about this?

I negotiated with a dealer that is 3+ hours away by email only for a used Leaf. I came to an agreement basically using description, carfax and pictures, I gave them a price, told them I would come buy it as long as it was as represented, with no further haggling on my end. Essentially, I would buy or walk. That way neither of our time in negotiations was wasted. Ended up with the cheapest 2013 I had seen on regional craigslist and car sales websites. I drove up and spent about an hour filling out the paperwork and then trailered it home on a uhaul car hauler trailer. The dealer was a "reputable" new car and used car dealer (so not a mom/pop wholesale dealer type). So, it definitely CAN work.

Part of the reason (maybe the biggest reason) you would want to shop outside of LV is so you can get a car with a better battery. Heat and time degrades the battery more than anything else. Of course, you might also be able to get a deal on one with a degraded battery that still qualifies for replacement under warranty (probably unbeknownst to the previous owner/dealer).

 

[LeftieBiker]

I also don't like white cars as much. However, in your location, body color may matter for battery life, and white is the most reflective, least heat-retaining color. A good compromise, though, is Brilliant Silver, which also reflects a lot of heat away from the car. I like the looks of the SuperBlack leaf, but don 't think I'd get one where you live...

 

[commasense]

I negotiated with a dealer that is 3+ hours away by email only for a used Leaf. I came to an agreement basically using description, carfax and pictures, I gave them a price, told them I would come buy it as long as it was as represented, with no further haggling on my end. Essentially, I would buy or walk. That way neither of our time in negotiations was wasted. Ended up with the cheapest 2013 I had seen on regional craigslist and car sales websites. I drove up and spent about an hour filling out the paperwork and then trailered it home on a uhaul car hauler trailer. The dealer was a "reputable" new car and used car dealer (so not a mom/pop wholesale dealer type). So, it definitely CAN work.

They didn't pull any last-minute surprises on you? Good to know. Maybe I have too cynical a view of used car dealers. (Maybe.)

Part of the reason (maybe the biggest reason) you would want to shop outside of LV is so you can get a car with a better battery. Heat and time degrades the battery more than anything else. Of course, you might also be able to get a deal on one with a degraded battery that still qualifies for replacement under warranty (probably unbeknownst to the previous owner/dealer).

All of the used Leafs I've seen for sale in Vegas (all three, so yes, it's a limited dataset so far) were originally leased in California, and bought at auction by the Las Vegas dealer. As people here know, CA has generous tax incentives for buying or leasing an EV; Nevada does not. So the number of Leafs sold or leased in NV to provide used inventory will be lower than the ones available in nearby states. I expect a lot of the used Leafs I'll see in the next few weeks will also be from CA.

I also don't like white cars as much. However, in your location, body color may matter for battery life, and white is the most reflective, least heat-retaining color. A good compromise, though, is Brilliant Silver, which also reflects a lot of heat away from the car. I like the looks of the SuperBlack leaf, but don 't think I'd get one where you live...

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for pointing it out. We're more okay with silver than white, but blue or red would be our top choices.

 

[LeftieBiker]

We're more okay with silver than white, but blue or red would be our top choices.

If I end up with another silver Leaf, I'll probably get a black Bra for it, one designed for a Leaf. Maybe a couple of other exterior touches. The silver is easier to make Sporty looking than the white, and the nose does accumulate visible imperfections over time.

 

[Levenkay]

Proof that it takes all sorts, I guess..


"Thanks to the miracles of modern chemical coatings, we can take a car made of metal, and paint it so it LOOKS like it's made of... metal! "

ho. hum.

 

[commasense]

After all my talk about waiting a few weeks to check the market, I woke up yesterday to find the dealership had dropped the price on the silver one from $11,000 to $10,000. I looked at all the 2013+ SVs and SLs within 500 miles (almost 200) and only 7 were priced lower than that, and they all had more miles. Before they lowered it, that was the price I wold have tried to bargain them down to, so although I made an even lower offer, I wasn't too upset when they held firm at $10,000. I'm happy with that deal, and we're happy with the car.

I'd be surprised if we could have found a significantly better deal by waiting, although it would have been nice to have a red or blue car. At least it's not white!

The only small annoyances were 1) that I didn't notice until too late that this car has no backup camera, but I found some threads here that make it look like a relatively easy project. And 2) it was only after I closed the deal that I found that there was only one fob, and would cost me almost $200 to get another one. If I had known, I would have tried to use that as another bargaining chip.

 

[jjeff]

I'd be surprised if we could have found a significantly better deal by waiting, although it would have been nice to have a red or blue car. At least it's not white!

The only small annoyances were 1) that I didn't notice until too late that this car has no backup camera, but I found some threads here that make it look like a relatively easy project. And 2) it was only after I closed the deal that I found that there was only one fob, and would cost me almost $200 to get another one. If I had known, I would have tried to use that as another bargaining chip.

I'm sure some people must like white, you see a ton of them, but I'm like you, I could take any color other than white.
I thought all Leafs had a backup camera :? I mean my bargain basement '13 S does and the only option I believe it had was the faster charger and QC port..... my '12 also has a nice backup camera, I had thought that maybe just some of the '11's lacked a camera.....
AFA the missing key/fob. I've been noticing a few local dealers state in their ads that only one FOB/key is guaranteed with a used car, it may have more but only one is guaranteed. I find this odd as I'm sure if someone turned in a lease car less one FOB they would have been billed for it.....where did that money go? I mean was it just extra money for someone.......doesn't sound right. Same for a trade it, I'm sure if you only had one FOB they'd subtract that from what you'd get.....again, where is that money going....

 

[davewill]

... I find this odd as I'm sure if someone turned in a lease car less one FOB they would have been billed for it.....where did that money go? I mean was it just extra money for someone.......doesn't sound right. Same for a trade it, I'm sure if you only had one FOB they'd subtract that from what you'd get.....again, where is that money going....

Right into the Nissan's pocket in the first case, and the dealer's in the second...although I've never had a dealer nitpick a trade that tightly. Can't hurt for the OP to whine a little. Might get them to give him one at a discount...Although $200 is actually a pretty good deal judging by the Replacement FOB thread: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15538

 

[commasense]

I thought all Leafs had a backup camera :? I mean my bargain basement '13 S does and the only option I believe it had was the faster charger and QC port..... my '12 also has a nice backup camera, I had thought that maybe just some of the '11's lacked a camera.....

Yeah, I thought so, too, which is why I didn't think to check on it before I drove it away. I didn't realize that without the Premium package that included Bose stereo (which I wouldn't pay a penny extra for) and AroundView (which I don't like as much as the ordinary backup camera), you got no camera at all. Annoying, but it might be a fun project to install my own camera, since the TCU will accept it.

AFA the missing key/fob. I've been noticing a few local dealers state in their ads that only one FOB/key is guaranteed with a used car, it may have more but only one is guaranteed. I find this odd as I'm sure if someone turned in a lease car less one FOB they would have been billed for it.....where did that money go? I mean was it just extra money for someone.......doesn't sound right. Same for a trade it, I'm sure if you only had one FOB they'd subtract that from what you'd get.....again, where is that money going....

I read somewhere (maybe here) that on leases the dealership keeps one fob in case they have to repossess the car. But why wouldn't the second fob be reunited with the car when the lease is over?

When I asked about it, my salesman acted as though you never got two fobs with a used car. Maybe just to keep me from trying to bargain on it. I wish I had been on my toes enough to think of that, but he was in the process of handing the car over to me at that point. The paperwork was all done.

 

[TomT]

Neither have a lizard battery...

Just found another difference between them: White was built in June 2013, Silver in February 2013. Does that make it more likely that White has a lizard battery? How can I find out for sure?

 

[LeftieBiker]

Tell the dealer you want a new fob, on their dime. They should have disclosed up front that one was missing.

 

[commasense]

If I had bought it from a Nissan dealer, I might have pressed that even after the sale, since it wouldn't have cost them much. But it wasn't a Nissan dealer, so I'm just eating this one.