Details about the new 30 kWh pack

[RegGuheert]

My skepticism about new chemistry is because of what they talk about in terms of gen 2,

After 5 years - they get a 25% increase - and in next one year they will get the other 75% increase - to double capacity ?

Maybe Gen 2 will hold more batteries.

 

[dhanson865]

My skepticism about new chemistry is because of what they talk about in terms of gen 2,

After 5 years - they get a 25% increase - and in next one year they will get the other 75% increase - to double capacity ?

Remember - when news of LG Chem vs AESC battery leaked out - the price was supposed to be 10% better for LG. There was no talk of 7% better energy density.

head over to ecomodder.com and see the boat tails they install on cars to improve aerodynamics. Maybe the big range increase won't just be battery only.

I'd make the leaf longer to

A. make more room for more battery cells
B. improve aerodynamics
C. increase cargo space

 

[evnow]

Getting more battery into Leaf doesn't help with cost. Leaf will be more mainstream as they have said and won't be a weird mobile.

 

[ydnas7]

its seems the new cells are still made at Nissan's Symna facility, so its a coated electrode base material.
so about all we can presume is that LG is not involved with these 30kWh packs.

Nissan traditionally minimises the Co content of their cells, so my guess is that these are NMC with something like 8,8,1 ratio
(unbalanced Ni is avoided for safety, Mn is high for safety and cost, high Co is avoided for cost). Although its still conceivable to have a Co containing Mn spinel chemistry also have similar improvements.

the increased warranty indicates that this is a significant change.

Volumetrically, its also likely the anodes have also improved

I think from memory, Nissan has a take or pay equivalent to 220k of the 24kWh packs.....

 

[ydnas7]

My skepticism about new chemistry is because of what they talk about in terms of gen 2,

After 5 years - they get a 25% increase - and in next one year they will get the other 75% increase - to double capacity ?

Maybe Gen 2 will hold more batteries.

LEAF started at 200km J08, then it raised to 228km J08, is probably close to 290km j08 now with 30kWh pack

to get to 400km J08 seems to require some increase in capacity, but not even 50%, only about 33% about needed

(a 400km J08 LEAF is twice the range of original nissan leaf)

 

[RegGuheert]

Thanks for the great information, ydnas7! I agree that Nissan errs on the side of safety. The LEAF has an outstanding safety record and they intend to maintain that.

I think from memory, Nissan has a take or pay equivalent to 220k of the 24kWh packs.....

I think that addresses one of my conundrums:

But that also begs the question: "If there is a new chemistry for 2016, why build ANY batteries with the old chemistry?" All I can come up with is that the old chemistry must cost less to make, allowing them to hold the price down on the "S" trim level by using that chemistry (and smaller cells).

Given your statement about their materials contract (IIUC), they need to ship at least another 25,000-30,000 24-kWh batteries to keep from taking a big loss. That means 24-kWh batteries in the "S" trim level and 24-kWh batteries for replacements for the older LEAFs.

I believe the 24-kWh battery ship has sailed and therefore expect that the base model will move to 30 kWh for the LEAF 2. That gives me continued hope that we will eventually be able to purchase a 30-kWh NMC battery to replace the original one in our MY2011 LEAF!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Thanks for the great information, ydnas7! I agree that Nissan errs on the side of safety. The LEAF has an outstanding safety record and they intend to maintain that.

I think from memory, Nissan has a take or pay equivalent to 220k of the 24kWh packs.....

I think that addresses one of my conundrums:

But that also begs the question: "If there is a new chemistry for 2016, why build ANY batteries with the old chemistry?" All I can come up with is that the old chemistry must cost less to make, allowing them to hold the price down on the "S" trim level by using that chemistry (and smaller cells).

Given your statement about their materials contract (IIUC), they need to ship at least another 25,000-30,000 24-kWh batteries to keep from taking a big loss. That means 24-kWh batteries in the "S" trim level and 24-kWh batteries for replacements for the older LEAFs.

I believe the 24-kWh battery ship has sailed and therefore expect that the base model will move to 30 kWh for the LEAF 2. That gives me continued hope that we will eventually be able to purchase a 30-kWh NMC battery to replace the original one in our MY2011 LEAF!

Interesting insights regarding the old battery. I had suspected something similar when I previously alluded to a manufacturing pipeline. I hope you are right, and the 24kWh battery will be discontinued after some 25,000-30,000 more copies.

I'm not 100% convinced that the 30kWh battery will be the base for the 2017 Leaf. The next chassis will certainly need more space for stuffing batteries. I expect the battery compartment to be 1.5 - 2x the volume of the current Leaf's. So there will be room to grow whereas there is no room in the 2016 Leaf. I will certainly be watching to see what they end up with.

 

[pkulak]

its seems the new cells are still made at Nissan's Symna facility, so its a coated electrode base material.
so about all we can presume is that LG is not involved with these 30kWh packs.

How would we know that? At this point, I'd think it would be odd if LG wasn't involved at all. The two companies agreed to a partnership a long time ago. At the very least, some LG engineers are consulting in Symna. At the most, LG has taken over that plant already.

 

[GregH]

It will be interesting, given this new cell design, to see what they go with for 2017. I could imagine a 45kWh pack with 6, 9 or 12 cell modules.
As noted, 45kWh with slight tweaks to vehicle weight and aerodynamics could easily reach 200 miles. If my aging memory serves me the gen2 EV1 (lighter and more aero) had about 29kWh and could do 130-140 miles (@ about 4.6 to 4.8mi/kWh)

 

[ydnas7]

I believe the 24-kWh battery ship has sailed and therefore expect that the base model will move to 30 kWh for the LEAF 2. That gives me continued hope that we will eventually be able to purchase a 30-kWh NMC battery to replace the original one in our MY2011 LEAF!

I suspect that due to Renault Kangoo ZE sales, Nissan is really close to crossing the pay or take threshold, so I would expect the 24kWh pack is simply cheaper than the 30kWh pack, furthermore the 24 kWh cells are likely to be cheaper than the cells for the kWh pack,. Globally there is room for both sizes gen 1.

 

[minispeed]

I know I'm a little late to this post but there are few things that I don't think anyone else has pointed out. The reason Nissan has a new 8 year warrantee on the 30 kWh pack may not have to be attributed solely to the chemistry or quality of the pack or the ability for a significant higher number of packs not needing a replacement but could be rolled into the cost of the SV/SL upgrade vs. 2015. After all any warrantee from bumper to bumper to emissions to batteries is rolled into the cost of the car. They could also be factoring in the increased revenue from a stronger warrantee vs the projected cost of manufacturing these cells in 5-8 years from now being much lower than they currently are.

Also with regards to the cells for the 24kWh S model, they could also be planning on using them in another model. It would be a great sized pack for a PIH or a smaller BEV. I also wouldn't be surprised if when Leaf 2 comes out that the current leaf continues to be sold along it with the 24kWh pack as a cheaper model. Much like they did with the "Rogue Select".

 

[sendler2112]

This guy did a good side by side comparison of the 24 vs the 30 kWh battery which has a totally different fast charge program and better performance overall. Not just bigger. Said the new battery is NMC.
.
http://pushevs.com/2016/01/13/nissan-leaf-24-kwh-vs-30-kwh/
.

 

[arnis]

Yes. 30kWh pack charges much faster. Not just +25% like it is with capacity.
It literally charges at full speed up to 75% SOC
At the same time it heats up more due to identical heat dissipation properties :lol:

30kWh pack at fast charging speed is absolute maximum for passive cooling

Not because 50kW is too much but because medium range batteries must dissipate
heat faster due to longer distance travel possibility. If they don't 3rd consecutive
fast charge will not be possible (at nominal speed) in some weather scenarios.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MTWmds_pBc

This is why I would call 30kWh Leaf still "range limited EV" due to the fact even if you are ready
to wait for "slow" fast charge to happen car will not do it for long distances (300+ miles).

Chevy bolt, with double battery size and active battery cooling is still "limited EV".
Not because the battery size but because charging will be as fast as with
30kWh Nissan Leaf - have to wait half an hour to drive 1½ hours - too long.
Bolt would be (ugly) Model 3 competitor if it would charge at 100kW and it had
infrastructure like Tesla has. There is no 100kW CCS. End of the line