Did not deliver the range advertised

[cwerdna]

Agreed with Stoaty and dgpcolorado on this.

Despite trying to keep my battery pack cool during the summers, I lost my 1st capacity bar at 35K. Car is at Sunnyvale on the weekdays, parked in the shade, and in Fremont on the weekends. It's parked overnight during the past summers, charged at L1.

....
209 GIDs is at 26% capacity loss--I should have lost 2 bars, but it still shows 1.

26% loss at 29 months of ownership (at 44K) is just awful--especially in a temperate climate, like the SF Bay Area. I've not QC'ed since the 1st bar loss, and did L1s during the summer. Suffered through 58-62 mph on freeways (no HOV).

I'm not likely to make the 4 bar loss buy 60K, and the battery-lease option is just not going to work--who will buy the car used if the battery is leased?

So enough was enough. I had to trade in the car (Modesto and Fairfield are just too far away for CarMax), and selling privately is just too much hassle to explain all the caveats (especially to a non-LEAFer). I traded in for a '14 Volt...

Next to it is a fellow '11 Black LEAF with 39K miles--that one has been there for 2 months. Surface rust on the brakes, cobwebs on the wheels are also telling--nobody has seriously looked or driven these 2 used LEAFs.

I know your part of San Jose. It gets hotter than much of the rest of SJ during the summer and colder during the winter. For those not familiar, summer days w/highs in the 90s and a few in the 100s aren't unusual there.

I'm glad I'm leasing as I sure don't want to deal w/very diminished range due to capacity loss and having few takers. Unless there's some oil crisis/gasoline shortage, I suspect resale values are going to be crap from all the lease returns and little interest in used Leafs.

 

[cwerdna]

No, you have lost 20-25% of your initial range. Buy a LeafDD (search the forum) or Leaf Spy (info in my signature), plug it in and stop worrying/guessing how much energy you have left in the battery. If you want to complain, that's fine, but don't expect others to be sympathetic when there is an easy solution to your problem.

This is a HUGE FAIL to require such equipment to properly use the full capability of the vehicle.

Agreed on the HUGE FAIL. I don't know what a LeafDD is. And I don't want to know what a LeafDD is. I just want to get from point A to point B and back again driving the car without a "LeafDD" or a flying unicorn.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But seriously, totally agree w/Stoaty. You're going to need to buy some relatively cheap instrumentation, such as the above or using Leaf Spy in order to better gauge your actual state of charge, improving your driving efficiency and navigating around the bottom (of % SoC) than the crap instrumentation in the pre-'13 Leafs.

You still haven't answered some of the questions at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Not knowing and reporting on your tire pressure doesn't cut it. We still have also MANY gaps in info (e.g. what tires you're using now, what's your miles/kwh efficiency for each leg of your trip or the whole amount roundtrip, changes to the car from stock, etc.)

That said, I agree w/the earlier sentiments about capacity loss being a lot more rapid than we were led to believe and the crap instrumentation in the pre-'13 Leafs. At least there are workarounds. In some other EVs, there are no known workarounds yet (e.g. nobody knows the equivalent of a "gid" on the Rav4 EV and it has no % SoC display, unlike the '13+ Leafs).

 

[DaveEV]

EPA miles should be miles to "---" as the official rating. Maybe it is?

EPA rating is the range from 100% driven until the car fails to keep up the required speed on the drive cycle. For the LEAF, this should occur when turtle mode kicks on.

 

[cwerdna]

EPA rating is the range from 100% driven until the car fails to keep up the required speed on the drive cycle. For the LEAF, this should occur when turtle mode kicks on.

On this note, it does annoy me when people make claims about range being short when they leave so much range on the table instead of at least going a bit past VLBW.

And, unfortunately, I suspect many of the folks have never looked into the details of the EPA tests. I posted http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.67235/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which was an article from WAY before the Leaf was sold. The C&D article focuses on testing ICEVs but the info about the test cycles is still insightful.

 

[BTaylor]

But seriously, totally agree w/Stoaty. You're going to need to buy some relatively cheap instrumentation, such as the above or using Leaf Spy in order to better gauge your actual state of charge, improving your driving efficiency and navigating around the bottom (of % SoC) than the crap instrumentation in the pre-'13 Leafs.

You still haven't answered some of the questions at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Not knowing and reporting on your tire pressure doesn't cut it. We still have also MANY gaps in info (e.g. what tires you're using now, what's your miles/kwh efficiency for each leg of your trip or the whole amount roundtrip, changes to the car from stock, etc.)

That said, I agree w/the earlier sentiments about capacity loss being a lot more rapid than we were led to believe and the crap instrumentation in the pre-'13 Leafs. At least there are workarounds. In some other EVs, there are no known workarounds yet (e.g. nobody knows the equivalent of a "gid" on the Rav4 EV and it has no % SoC display, unlike the '13+ Leafs).[/quote]

I just measured the 33 to 32 PSI on all four tires with the outside temp at 57F and the car hasn't moved for over 11 hours (still at the office). The tires are fairly new, but the exact same size and brand as when I first bought the car. No changes from the stock. I am not sure of the kwh efficiency. I want to guesstimate 3.8kwh, but that is without verification or even looking at the dashboard, so take it with a grain of salt. The most important thing to note is nothing has changed with my driving habits or route. The only thing that has changed is a dramatic decrease in range per every instrument on the car.

 

[cwerdna]

I just measured the 33 to 32 PSI on all four tires with the outside temp at 57F and the car hasn't moved for over 11 hours (still at the office). The tires are fairly new, but the exact same size and brand as when I first bought the car. No changes from the stock. I am not sure of the kwh efficiency. I want to guesstimate 3.8kwh, but that is without verification or even looking at the dashboard, so take it with a grain of salt. The most important thing to note is nothing has changed with my driving habits or route. The only thing that has changed is a dramatic decrease in range per every instrument on the car.

Tire pressure is too low. Inflate them to higher pressures, as suggested earlier.

So, besides being the same size and brand, are they the same model? Even if they're identical, new tires have higher rolling resistance than worn identical tires and there is a difference in the # of miles registered on the odometer on new vs. worn tires (see http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

As for "I am not sure of the kwh efficiency". Please reset it when you leave from work tonight and let us know the reading when you arrive at work tomorrow.

I know you've lost capacity. I get it. But using the existing instrumentation on your car (e.g. GOM and the not-granular enough fuel bars) is causing you some additional unnecessary range anxiety.

The other problem is that you're also suffering some temporary battery capacity reduction due to colder weather, esp. if your car is cold-soaked outside. Assuming you charge at home and need heat in the morning, can you pre-heat the car while still plugged in? (I'm assuming you have a 240 volt EVSE at home and not charging at 120 volts). That'll help a bit w/the power hungry heater.

Also, what if you turn the HVAC system completely off via the (tiny) on/off button? (From what I understand, the HVAC on pre-'13s has some quirks where the power hungry heater might run when you don't think it is/don't want it to run. '11 or '12 owners please chime in if I'm wrong on this.)

Are you letting/have you let the batteries balance when you charge to 100%? There's been a whole bunch of debate as to when this happens on pre-'13 Leafs. You can start at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7360&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for figure out what the answer is. It's different (it seems) on my '13.

Although this won't help w/your capacity loss, can you charge at all at work, at least 120 volts? Charging for several hours or all day @ work (even just at 120 volts) will at least enable you to drive w/the flow of traffic.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

The range expectations are fine when disclosed and new.

10% degradation per year even in mild climates.... Not so much paperwork or disclosures on that.
I fully expected 80% range at 5 years and possibly EOL at 10 yrs. Not 80% at 2 years and EOL at 3yrs.

At least the AZ Leafs will be getting a free battery or two and maybe a heat tolerant battery later this year.

I disagree--I think you're being too kind.

I bought my 2012 Leaf under the expectation that on aveage it would do 73 miles. I knew the 100 mile range was bogus and I kept clear in my mind this information:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/14/nissan-pegs-leaf-range-between-47-and-138-miles-individual-resu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is my favorite one, though it's not the only fantastical entry:

Winter temps of 14 degrees with the heater on, will drop range to 62 miles in stop-and-go traffic, assuming an average speed of 15 mph.

My response:

HAHAHAHAHAHA

NO.

First what is "heater on", because to me heater on is heater on. This car in those temps will draw a constant 5 kWh if you have the heat on at 90 F (which is how I like it; I don't do auto). Guess how that math works out? That is the entire battery capacity gone in four hours of heat. Simple math. And so where are the other 62 miles coming from? The remaining 2 kWh in the pack? Laughable.

Here's my experience. My 2012 has not lost any bars. The other day in those exact temps, and an average speed of about 30 mph I turtled it at 39 miles.. And believe it or not that was after an L1 charge for 90 minutes in the middle of the day, so I actually went from 100% capacity to turtle in 36 miles. PSI was 40 because I had filled tired earlier in the week. So, yeah, I think Nissan's range claim in the winter is utterly hilarious.

As an aside, I'm returning the car today at lunch and buying a new Altima. I stole the Leaf when I got it, and it was only a 24 month lease, so I only have to cover two payments, which are more than offset by incredible Nissan rebates right now. There is so much to like about the Leaf and I will miss its incredibly low fuel costs, it's fantastic power train (107 horsepower feels more like 200 when accelerating at low speeds), but it is not a fit winter car. It just has no business being out in the cold. Most people who have better luck than me drive with the heat off or on low, but a cold-soaked Leaf (battery cooled down to ambient) with a warm cabin has a despicable range. So yeah my fuel costs are going to go up now but I will never be in my car again cold hoping I can make it home because I was saucy enough to think I could actually run an errand at lunch and used up half the pack driving a few extra miles.

I'd buy a Leaf again if the pack is 40 kWh and the price is the same. I know, I'm dreaming, so it may be a few years before that becomes possible.

 

[uwskier20]

I'd buy a Leaf again if the pack is 40 kWh and the price is the same. I know, I'm dreaming, so it may be a few years before that becomes possible.

Yeah, a bit disappointed myself. Even in maritime Seattle, where the rain is constant and the battery packs last longer, I've lost enough capacity that I can't comfortably make my roundtrip. I'd be sunk if I couldn't use the 110V at work, and luckily they're permitting it.

Sad that people are having to give up on their LEAFs, but grateful folks like you aren't giving up on EVs altogether. I think another 8-10 kWh and *actual* real-world range of 100-120 miles would be a game changer. I'm guessing that Tesla's Model E, along with others, will make that all feasible in a couple years to those of us who can't afford a Model S or a used Roadster.

 

[WetEV]

I've lost enough capacity that I can't comfortably make my roundtrip. I'd be sunk if I couldn't use the 110V at work, and luckily they're permitting it.

There is range, and there is range.

A 50 mile commute is on the edge of what is reasonable with a Leaf over it's life cycle. Back roads with speed limits mostly under 45MPH in the PNW, maybe.

Start with a 80 mile 100% to turtle ideal new car range, the Leaf at 60MPH. Note that this is not a realistic range as there is no margin, no climate control usage, no reduction in capacity due to temperature and no battery capacity loss. Why do we need margin? It is not safe to arrive home on turtle. Why do we need climate control? Defog for safety, and for comfort. Why should we allow for battery capacity loss? Because it happens. Is 80 miles the right ideal new car range? No. If your commute is low speed, might be able to use the 100 mile range. If you drive 75MPH, more like 60 mile initial ideal range.,

Subtract 20% for margin, nothing for climate, and that will vary with location, and 30% for a standard EOL for the battery and nothing for thermal reduction in capacity. That is about 45 miles, starting with a 80 mile ideal new car range.

Of course, you can change the amount of margin, the allowance for climate control, the thermal reduction in capacity and the EOL percentage. Realistically, the Leaf works best with about a 35 mile commute. To meet the needs of most drivers, something close to a 150 mile EPA range is needed.

 

[uwskier20]

There is range, and there is range.

I get that, and all you said, although I think many super-early adopters (of which I am one) were duped by Nissan's capacity claims (80% after 10 years, IIRC), promises of a battery upgrade program, etc. Not only did Nissan advertise these types of things, but I inquired directly with Nissan representatives at the LEAF Test Drive event in Seattle in November 2010, and was told as much.

I'm currently a hair under 85% of original capacity after 2.5 years of babying the battery, and still, much better off than most owners (having lost my first capacity bar at a relatively high 48,500 miles). During the first two years, my commute was a breeze, and I often arrived at home with 3-4 bars remaining. Last summer, I experienced a precipitous drop in capacity (nearly 10%, May-July 2013), and that's where the problems really started.

So, I believe this has only recently become about setting "reasonable" expectations (e.g., to expect only half of what Nissan promised for range) as information about poor battery performance and longevity continues to surface. One buying in spring of 2011 couldn't reasonable expect their range to be cut so substantially in less than three years.

 

[CayenneSJLEAFy]

@cwerdna,

Yes, I agree. That's the reason why I decided to trade-in now, versus waiting until late Spring to Summer. There are several other reasons:

--I do not want to buy another EV/PHEV during the hot temp months (I bought my LEAF in August, and 2011 was a hot summer). I don't want the possibility of the car sitting in a dealer/shipping lot for weeks while it's transported/waiting to be sold

--Green HOV stickers "may" run out by mid-2014 (if sales really pick up on PHEVs)

--lease returns will start trickling in spring. To be sure, not to the levels for next year and thereafter, but for sure the market will start getting more used LEAFs. And knowing how the 2 LEAFs I'm seeing at Capital Chevy are sitting (mine for 1 month, and the other for 2 months), it won't be long before word gets out that dealers won't want the LEAFs in trade for their lot (aside from going to wholesale).

I might have kept our LEAF if our worksites had available charging stations. But with EV sales taking off like crazy in the SF Bay Area, available chargers are really hard to come by, leading to "available charger anxiety." Favorite places that we used to go to charge (Target Fremont, as an example) are also almost ways filled now with new EVs. Our infrastructure has grown a lot--but it still needs to grow a lot faster.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I'd buy a Leaf again if the pack is 40 kWh and the price is the same. I know, I'm dreaming, so it may be a few years before that becomes possible.

Yeah, a bit disappointed myself. Even in maritime Seattle, where the rain is constant and the battery packs last longer, I've lost enough capacity that I can't comfortably make my roundtrip. I'd be sunk if I couldn't use the 110V at work, and luckily they're permitting it.

Sad that people are having to give up on their LEAFs, but grateful folks like you aren't giving up on EVs altogether. I think another 8-10 kWh and *actual* real-world range of 100-120 miles would be a game changer. I'm guessing that Tesla's Model E, along with others, will make that all feasible in a couple years to those of us who can't afford a Model S or a used Roadster.

To be sure there were some mixed feelings when I dropped off the Leaf today. I've not been that excited for a car as I was when I got it in a while. When I test drove one I just knew I absolutely needed one. And I've sung its praises since I got it. I can certainly see myself going to another EV once I can afford one with better range.

 

[CayenneSJLEAFy]

I agree about the mixed feelings part. My wife and kids still miss our LEAF. It was reliable and very usable for the past 2.5 years. Amazing low maintenance costs. Terrific, supportive LEAF community. Yes, the car had minor annoyances (pressing OK at every startup, fast wearing "carpet", etc).

But the stress was getting to us--LBW at 42 to 44 miles (from charging at 100%). Finding public chargers frequently occupied now by brand-new EVs. Unreliable QCs that may be offline even though the Blink app says otherwise, etc etc.

I am very happy with our '14 Volt. Ironically I regularly get 45-48 miles on the battery before the ICE kicks on. Our Volt is fully loaded, and it has been great so far. It's as closest to the LEAF experience as I can find with a substantial battery pack with TMS. And yet...if the LEAF battery hadn't degraded so quickly I wouldn't have gone in this direction.

Yes, the charging rate for the Volt is slower than the LEAF ~9 mph versus ~15 mph for the LEAF on L2, but when I hear the Volt's TMS kick on (yes, even at 55 degrees!), I know why. It makes me very upset hearing that TMS running, as I know I should have been hearing that for our LEAF too (had Nissan chosen to put it on the LEAF). The TMS means everything to the LEAF battery, and the LEAF DD device has shown me how warm/hot the battery can get from merely driving it (especially during regen).

 

[Mtown0031]

I am sorry that your leaf experience was not great. I have a 2014 cayenne red SL. It has proven a lot of people wrong that I have read about previously. In late February when it was so cold, my new leaf performed flawlessly. The heat pump heating system readily warmed the cabin. I set it on automatic and 72 degrees. In just a few minutes it was producing adequate heat. Can't say that about my big ford truck. Oh, when the heat was turned on, the GOM would drop only 2 miles in range.

As far as range, I drive conservatively an can easily get 80 plus miles even when it's cold outside. I think learning how to handle this car is important.

I would only add that you maybe give the LEAF another shot.

Proud to be a LEAF owner.

 

[TomT]

Based on what we now know about the 2015 Leaf, I see no reason to consider it when my lease is up in March. My 2011 has generally been a good car but the battery has been a disappointment.

I would only add that you maybe give the LEAF another shot.

 

[ERG4ALL]

Our lease was up on our 2011 model, so we re-upped for a 2014. What a difference. The old resistance heater would show as much as 4,500 watts when it started to heat a cold cabin. On the new one we use the heated seats and heated steering wheel. What amazes me is that I can see no drain on the drive battery. I'm wondering if those items are run off the 12V battery that will get charged the next time I plug it in or from the 400V battery if necessary. I also appreciate that it has a battery heater to allow the battery to function better at very low temperatures. All of these may have a bearing on the OPs dissatisfaction.

 

[TomT]

The upgraded HVAC system is actually a disadvantage for us. We rarely need heat but often need AC and the AC on the newer reverse cycle system is less efficient than it was on the old system...
The heated wheel and seat would be nice for those rare occasions though when we don't really need heat but it is cool...

The old resistance heater would show as much as 4,500 watts when it started to heat a cold cabin.

 

[mwalsh]

The heated wheel and seat would be nice for those rare occasions though when we don't really need heat but it is cool...

Hell, with climate change we barely need heated stuff anymore round these parts. I fitted heated seats for this last winter and barely used them. Even without a heated wheel, I didn't need gloves at all this last winter!

 

[TomT]

True! I think we wore a light sweater once and that was about it this last year! A/C; that was another matter.

The heated wheel and seat would be nice for those rare occasions though when we don't really need heat but it is cool...

Hell, with climate change we barely need heated stuff anymore round these parts. I fitted heated seats for this last winter and barely used them. Even without a heated wheel, I didn't need gloves at all this last winter!

 

[smkettner]

I am sorry that your leaf experience was not great. I have a 2014 cayenne red SL. It has proven a lot of people wrong that I have read about previously.

Glad you are happy but the proof will come at about three years.