Economics don't work out...

[smkettner]

Just saying I prefer to fill at 40 cents per hour rather than $1.80/hr.

Trouble is I don't always know what is next. Too often I have plugged in to be ready to go no where.
So it kills me to pay $5.40 to fill when I could have waited and filled for $1.20 (3 hours charging)
$4 per day adds up.

It is just another example how the limited range hurts the economics.
If LEAF had solid 65mph 120 mile range the issue about goes away for me.
$4 per day would pay the battery replacement lease for example.

 

[LEAFer]

The following is interesting and reflects the "eMPG" method the OP (Bob) is ruminating about (rather than the MPGe method) ...

It is called the "eGallon" ...

http://energy.gov/downloads/egallon-methodology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://energy.gov/articles/egallon-how-much-cheaper-it-drive-electricity#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://energy.gov/articles/egallon-what-it-and-why-it-s-important" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[SanDust]

Is the chart wrong? Even if LEAF goes twice as far on "gas equivalent" we are well over $10 per gallon.

It's not wrong it's irrelevant. It answers the question: How much would a gallon of gas cost if it were priced on a per kWh basis like electricity is? The problem is that no one cares about the answer.

Electrical drive trains are so much more efficient than ICEs that it takes 4X more kWh to move an ICE vehicle that the same vehicle with an electric drive train. If gas and electricity were priced the same on a per kWh basis the EV would cost 1/4X as much to run.

Bob is right to concern himself with eMPG rather than MPGe. MPGe is an engineering concept.

 

[evnow]

Whether or not it was intentional, he's right to focus on the miles per cost-of-a-gallon metric rather than the miles per energy-of-a-gallon metric. It's just a coincidence that the two metrics do give fairly similar results. $$$ is what matters to practical-minded consumers considering whether or not to buy an EV, not energy content of fuels.

If $ is all that mattered everyone would be driving around a beat-up Honda Civic. Tata Nano would be the largest selling car.

Operational cost is just one of the factors. Atleast we should look at TCO, not just fueling cost.

People buy the "best" car they can for their budget (which itself is somewhat flexible). They subconsciously assign values to various attributes of the car - including cost, style, status, lifestyle etc.

 

[smkettner]

Is the chart wrong? Even if LEAF goes twice as far on "gas equivalent" we are well over $10 per gallon.

It's not wrong it's irrelevant. It answers the question: How much would a gallon of gas cost if it were priced on a per kWh basis like electricity is? The problem is that no one cares about the answer.

Electrical drive trains are so much more efficient than ICEs that it takes 4X more kWh to move an ICE vehicle that the same vehicle with an electric drive train. If gas and electricity were priced the same on a per kWh basis the EV would cost 1/4X as much to run.

Bob is right to concern himself with eMPG rather than MPGe. MPGe is an engineering concept.

So break even is $16 gasoline fuel equivilent? I still prefer to choose the low priced electricity. Trouble is LEAF does not store enough low cost electric for my use. This works against the economics working out as planned.

 

[smkettner]

Operational cost is just one of the factors. Atleast we should look at TCO, not just fueling cost.

That is fine until the day after you lease or buy. Once we have the vehicle we look then to minimize refueling cost.

 

[thankyouOB]

CA dreaming is a reality in LA:
(your mileage and saving swill vary.)
---
i bought the car for 20k plus tax. you might have to pay $2500 more, as the CA rebate is no longer 5k.
i was ready for a new car and HOV lane usage.

i can charge at home from 8 p.m. to 10 am weekdays and all day on weekends for 8-9 cents a kwh, depending on whether it is a summer month or the other 8 months of the year.
that means a complete fill up costs about $2 to go 70-80 miles.

the savings is about 2k-2.4k a year in gasoline for 12k-13k a year, instead of commuting in my 25mpg ICE.
i have used pay-to-play chargers once for $2.
-
even that cost is mutable, as i get all my power from solar on the roof and a lower EV rate from LADWP.
i can charge part of the day at work for free. not being a pig about it, i usually charge the 4-5 bars i need to refill to 80%.

 

[UkrainianKozak]

The difference may have been intentional on your part, or accidental. In either case, here's one crucial difference. An "MPGe" is computed based on *NOT* the pricing of gasoline, but the energy equivalence of a gallon of gasoline. A U.S. gallon of gasoline is said to contain 33.41 kWh (and I have seen people use 34kWh).

Whether or not it was intentional, he's right to focus on the miles per cost-of-a-gallon metric rather than the miles per energy-of-a-gallon metric. It's just a coincidence that the two metrics do give fairly similar results. $$$ is what matters to practical-minded consumers considering whether or not to buy an EV, not energy content of fuels.

Well, this is right and wrong.
If you use MPG/MPGe, you compare energy efficiency. If you really care about cost, you should really compare total cost of ownership, not efficiency ratings. cheap inefficient car will be more cost effective than very expensive and super efficient car.

In such case you need to take in account the cost of the car, residual value, cost of maintenance/oil changes and fuel.

 

[evnow]

Operational cost is just one of the factors. Atleast we should look at TCO, not just fueling cost.

That is fine until the day after you lease or buy. Once we have the vehicle we look then to minimize refueling cost.

Ok - so what are we talking about ? The day after we buy or the reason one might want to buy ?

Personally, I don't try to minimize the cost of refueling. It is so low to start with, it makes little sense to me.

 

[fooljoe]

If $ is all that mattered everyone would be driving around a beat-up Honda Civic. Tata Nano would be the largest selling car.

Operational cost is just one of the factors. Atleast we should look at TCO, not just fueling cost.

People buy the "best" car they can for their budget (which itself is somewhat flexible). They subconsciously assign values to various attributes of the car - including cost, style, status, lifestyle etc.

Hence my caveat of to practical-minded consumers. Obviously not all consumers are practical-minded - the decision comes down to some fuzzy combination of your subconscious values and the practical concerns like fuel cost, sticker price, and maintenance cost.

But my point is that as far as those practical concerns go, fuel cost relative to the competition is what matters, not the vague notion of efficiency relative to energy content that MPGe gives you.

If you use MPG/MPGe, you compare energy efficiency.

Not really. That comparison is an incomplete picture, as it leaves out the vastly different upstream efficiencies of each fuel source. MPG is fine for comparing one gas car to another, and MPGe is fine for comparing one EV to another, but comparing an EV to a gas car based on MPG/MPGe is not correct. And the correct way to do it (wells-to-wheels) is a very tough problem that involves having to make assumptions about way too many variables - all to get an answer that's only of interest to scientists and meaningless to consumers.

Why does anyone want a gas car with higher MPG? To pay less for gas, not because he cares about efficiency for efficiency's sake. And so if you want to make a meaningful comparison between a gas car and an EV you look at the relative costs. Thankfully the EPA sticker does include an estimation of fuel cost as well as the bogus MPGe number, but it unfortunately makes the MPGe number the prominent one.

 

[SanDust]

So break even is $16 gasoline fuel equivilent? I still prefer to choose the low priced electricity. Trouble is LEAF does not store enough low cost electric for my use. This works against the economics working out as planned.

Completely depends on the car. If you can go 100 miles on $3.74 of electricity, then what price does gas have to be so that it would cost that much to go 100 miles? If you get 50 MPG then the price equivalent would be $1.87/gallon gas. If you get 20 MPG then you'd need gas to drop to $.75/gallon (not likely to happen soon).