Electric Car Economics: Payback vs. Premium

[Herm]

What, no comments on the global warming denial?

Do we have to bring religion or politics into all discussions?.. Let the Believers and the Deniers have their debates in other threads.

 

[Train]

He's speculating the price of a replacement battery ten years into the future. Ten years into the future, electric cars may well still be niche vehicles that only sell by the thousands per year. Regardless, if you have the car seven years and now has 70% range, that's certainly going to be a huge hit at trade in time when the dealer knocks off thousands of dollars because they have to replace the battery. It's not going to save you money.

Quiet is overrated. The sound of the engine revving, rowing through the gears, a cam lope, air intake and indeed, the smell of combustion are attributes that many car enthusiasts enjoy. I can't think of anything more boring that an ultra quiet cabin.

If you're going to put a price on "driving experience" you also have to put a price on inconvenience. Driving a car with a 70 mile range certainly brings any fun of his positive characteristics of an electric to a quick end. Sure, you can get more miles but you gotta pay a steep price for that.

And if you are to use the torque and power of that Tesla and try some, ahem...spirited driving, your mileage isn't going to be anywhere near 300 miles.

 

[Stoaty]

Quiet is overrated. The sound of the engine revving, rowing through the gears, a cam lope, air intake and indeed, the smell of combustion are attributes that many car enthusiasts enjoy. I can't think of anything more boring that an ultra quiet cabin.

That is an opinion, not a fact. Quiet is very high on my list of positive attributes, and part of the reason I love driving my Leaf.

 

[Train]

Can't see that I posted it as anything but an opinion.

 

[Chieftan68]

Hmm. BMWs are supposed to be good cars but they don't have great reliability according to ConsumerReports. Too early, of course, for the Leaf. But the BMW maintenance costs are also very high.

As an earlier author wrote, why isn't anybody comparing why you should buy a BMW instead of a Leaf? Initial cost, depreciation, mpg justification, range, luxury, cost of maintenance, blah, blah, blah.

I've driven several "luxury" cars. Not impressed.

To each his own. The Leaf is the finest car I've ever owned. Others may have purchased must nicer. But then, that brings us full circle to justification for an automobile purchase. That question/debate never ends.

I hope you don't listen to Consumer Reports about everything. If you did you wouldn't be driving the LEAF :shock: !!!

You don't subscribe to Consumer Reports. :shock:

From Consumer Reports, April 2012:

"The Leaf feels quick at low speeds, is quiet, and rides comfortably. Cabin access is easy, and the rear is fairly roomy. We measured 3.16 m/kwh, the equivalent of 106 mpg. Running costs are extremely low: 3.5 cents per mile at the national average of 11 cents per kwh."

The Leaf is too new for the three objective ratings that CR conducts from their gathered 1.3 million automobile survey respondants: reliability, owner satisfaction, and owner cost. It may take a while because CR only does those three metrics when enough cars are reported owned for statistical significance. For example, the Porsche Boxter took forever to get those ratings because of limited sales.

In the subjective rating (given to every automobile tested by CR), the Leaf scored 78--third highest in their category which CR has determined to be Hatchbacks: Fuel-Efficient. The Leaf was bested only by the VW Golf TDI manual transmission diesel and the Toyota Prius--the Prius only two points higher (80).

Sooooooooooo, I think the jury is completely out until enough Leafs are sold. Until then, based on the subjective score alone, the Leaf's a winner.

 

[ztanos]

Hmm. BMWs are supposed to be good cars but they don't have great reliability according to ConsumerReports. Too early, of course, for the Leaf. But the BMW maintenance costs are also very high.

As an earlier author wrote, why isn't anybody comparing why you should buy a BMW instead of a Leaf? Initial cost, depreciation, mpg justification, range, luxury, cost of maintenance, blah, blah, blah.

I've driven several "luxury" cars. Not impressed.

To each his own. The Leaf is the finest car I've ever owned. Others may have purchased must nicer. But then, that brings us full circle to justification for an automobile purchase. That question/debate never ends.

I hope you don't listen to Consumer Reports about everything. If you did you wouldn't be driving the LEAF :shock: !!!

You don't subscribe to Consumer Reports. :shock:

From Consumer Reports, April 2012:

"The Leaf feels quick at low speeds, is quiet, and rides comfortably. Cabin access is easy, and the rear is fairly roomy. We measured 3.16 m/kwh, the equivalent of 106 mpg. Running costs are extremely low: 3.5 cents per mile at the national average of 11 cents per kwh."

The Leaf is too new for the three objective ratings that CR conducts from their gathered 1.3 million automobile survey respondants: reliability, owner satisfaction, and owner cost. It may take a while because CR only does those three metrics when enough cars are reported owned for statistical significance. For example, the Porsche Boxter took forever to get those ratings because of limited sales.

In the subjective rating (given to every automobile tested by CR), the Leaf scored 78--third highest in their category which CR has determined to be Hatchbacks: Fuel-Efficient. The Leaf was bested only by the VW Golf TDI manual transmission diesel and the Toyota Prius--the Prius only two points higher (80).

Sooooooooooo, I think the jury is completely out until enough Leafs are sold. Until then, based on the subjective score alone, the Leaf's a winner.

You are absolutely correct. I have been reading all the magazine articles this week and got two of them mixed up. CR says great things about the LEAF.

 

[kentuckyleaf]

The Leaf looks and drives and has quality like a Yugo in comparison...

Clearly you have never spent much time driving a Yugo. My friend owned one, and it had many problems right off the lot. Interior lights that didn't work, rattles, knocks, it was a piece of junk when it was brand spanking new. Sure a Leaf isn't a BMW, but it's a long friggin way from a Yugo. I can't compare a Leaf to a Versa, never been inside one. The Leaf is much nicer than my old Chevy Prism, at least as nice as our '06 Prius, I'd place it slightly nicer than my two door Chevy Cavalier, but I had smoking 17" rims on that yellow machine. I can compare the Leaf to vehicles I've owned, I can compare it to the awful Yugo, I have no idea how it compares to the Versa. The Leaf is a premium vehicle, it has cool bells and whistles, it's fast, and I never get called to the gas station to help my wife with a fillup (that happens folks) I got the car because I like it. At one time I wanted a Corvette. I've out grown that desire. There's nothing more funny to me than seeing a Diesel pickup truck with smoke stacks coming out the bed, stomp on the fuel at a red light. Not only does the Leaf beat the truck off the line, the Leaf does it without turning dollar bills into black smoke. That makes me point and laugh.

 

[coolfilmaker]

at least as nice as our '06 Prius,

You must have gotten one of the cheaper packages because our Leaf is nowhere near as nice as our '06 Prius.

 

[pchilds]

at least as nice as our '06 Prius,

You must have gotten one of the cheaper packages because our Leaf is nowhere near as nice as our '06 Prius.

My '07 Prius, is not nearly as nice as the Leaf. The Nav system is crap, the seats are painful to sit in, I got the top of the line Prius, the only thing it doesn't have is leather.

 

[lkkms2]

I like looking at a broader picture when comparing.

An average Gasoline vehicle could easily use $2000 worth of gas in a year vs $400 or less in local electricity for an EV. For Every $1000 you spend on gas about $300 goes to pay for foreign oil - that is money that is leaving the U.S. economy

Using all local fuel (electricity) and keeping more dollars to circulate in the local economy - priceless!

Payback - immediate and ongoing!

 

[Zythryn]

Sounds like he ordered a Model S which does come with a 240 volt mobile EVSE.
I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the 300 mile range Model S owners don't even bother having any extra wiring put in.

Although Tesla's amazing 20 kw permanent EVSE is a mere $1200, it will require 120 amps worth of circuit breakers which for most people will mean getting a new panel and upgraded electrical service to their house. Maybe some people will have the permanent EVSE installed with less power or just get a 240 volt plug installed but I don't think many Model S buyers are into half-assing things.

I believe you have some outdated and/or incorrect information.
The Model S comes standard with an onboard 10kwh charger and what they call a 'mobile connector' which is basically the cable you can plug into the wall.

There is a high power wall connector available, however it is not included as standard equipment.
While this is what I think you were talking about when you mention EVSE as the cost is about $1200. The wall connector is not rated at 20kwh, that is the rating of the dual onboard chargers (10kwh each). The second charger is included in the 85kwh battery version of the model S, optional in the others.

The high power wall connector can use a circuit breaker with a rating anywhere from 40-100 amps. Not 125 as you mentioned.
Different levels of power will, of course, give you different charging speeds.

Personally 31miles per hour of charging is plenty for me, so I expect to just plug in the included cord into a washer/dryer 220volt outlet.

 

[SteveInSeattle]

They are comparing to a 40mpg ICE car, what car get's 40mpg (real world/combined) other than the VW Diesel and the Prius?

 

[asinclair]

I was considering a BMW 3-series (or a used 5-series) and/or a Mercedes C-Class.

The Leaf is nowhere as luxurious as my old S-Class Mercedes (which I was crazy enough to sell and buy a Ford Escape Hybrid - another story), but I had nothing but trouble with all of the gadgets on that car, as soon as the warranty went out $1000 repairs all of the time. I actually like that the Leaf doesn't have too many gadgets; I got in a friends Prius the other day and the dashboard had so many buttons I was getting dizzy just trying to figure out what they all are for!

Anyway, the point is I would never have even considered a Versa as an alternative to the Leaf. It drives as if it is in a much higher class category, but is definitely not a premium luxury car (although it has a lot of the same characteristics while driving). Just my opinion.

 

[evnow]

Sounds like he ordered a Model S which does come with a 240 volt mobile EVSE. I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the 300 mile range Model S owners don't even bother having any extra wiring put in.

When someone spends a $100k on a car - an extra few thousand wouldn't mean much.

 

[ENIAC]

The Leaf is nowhere as luxurious as my old S-Class Mercedes (which I was crazy enough to sell and buy a Ford Escape Hybrid - another story), but I had nothing but trouble with all of the gadgets on that car, as soon as the warranty went out $1000 repairs all of the time. I actually like that the Leaf doesn't have too many gadgets; I got in a friends Prius the other day and the dashboard had so many buttons I was getting dizzy just trying to figure out what they all are for!

My experience is similar. We owned a turbo Volvo years ago that was loaded with every option offered. Big mistake. It was in the shop a lot. Little things were always going out and because there were so many "things", it was nearly always in a state of repair. I'm actually a bit concerned about the LEAF and the reliability of all it's "electronic content" over the long term. Although, so far so good. In vehicles, I normally prefer premium materials, design, and ride rather than gadgets. With the LEAF we didn't have a lot of choice in that regard.

 

[coolfilmaker]

Sounds like he ordered a Model S which does come with a 240 volt mobile EVSE. I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the 300 mile range Model S owners don't even bother having any extra wiring put in.

When someone spends a $100k on a car - an extra few thousand wouldn't mean much.

Yes, but having a giant ugly conduit along the outside of your house would. Also, there will be $50,000 Model S owners.

 

[vegastar]

For me the payback of my LEAF is very easy compared to the other car I was considering:

Leaf : 37k€ - 5k€ government incentive (Only valid in 2011, 2012 Leafs cost the full 37k€)
VW Golf TDi Blue Motion 105hp manual transmission: 26k€

Cost in Diesel per year with 5l/100km (best case scenario) - 28000km x 1.40€/l x 5l/100km = 1960€
Cost of the 5000kW.h the Leaf used in the first year - 500€

The Golf pays 92€/annum of road tax and the service is 250€/30000km (minimum). The Leaf doesn't pay road tax and the 30000km inspection was 79€.

So:

1960€ + 92€ + 250€ - 500€ - 79€ = 1723€/annum of amortization. The break even is (32k€-26k€)/1723€ = 3.5 years. And the Leaf is a much better car than the Golf Bluemotion.

 

[ksnogas2112]

They are comparing to a 40mpg ICE car, what car get's 40mpg (real world/combined) other than the VW Diesel and the Prius?

My old 2002 Saturn SL 5 speed manual on the highway. With 4 people, low fuel light (2 gallons left) came on in west St. Louis, filled up in Columbia, MO.

Regular combined mpg was 33-35mpg but on long trips would get 40 mpg hiway.

 

[ztanos]

They are comparing to a 40mpg ICE car, what car get's 40mpg (real world/combined) other than the VW Diesel and the Prius?

My old 2002 Saturn SL 5 speed manual on the highway. With 4 people, low fuel light (2 gallons left) came on in west St. Louis, filled up in Columbia, MO.

Regular combined mpg was 33-35mpg but on long trips would get 40 mpg hiway.

Really wish I would have gone for the 5 speed on my SC 2. I have averaged 31 mpg for the last 5 months, 9,000 miles.

The saturn is a good car that burns little, but it only has a 12 gallon tank, so I get range anxiety every 4 days. :lol: