Enphase field MTBF: M190: ~36 Years M215: ~316 Years M250: >357 Years

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We have a mixture of M190, M215 and M250 Enphase at our site.

Our M190(s) were installed in late 2010 and early 2011. Two of the M190(s) were very early units with MC4 connectors that could be field disassembled -- both failed after 2 years. Yesterday another M190 started limiting power to 136 watts instead of its usual 198-199. It was also producing the Grid Gone events several times per day. Enphase is sending its replacement today. That will bring our failures with the M190(s) up to 3 out of 24 in four years.

I am curious about the code mentioned in this thread. On our M190(s) the code is: 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00 - Sat Jan 31, 2015 08:02 AM EST. I assume that is fairly current.

None of our M215 or M250 inverters have failed.

All of the inverters here are on elevated pole arrays about 12 feet above ground. They get plenty of ventilation underneath.

One of my two Envoys may be about to die. It has been reporting false database corruption, false file system corruption and restarting several times today. This was happening before they tried to fix that issue today with the latest code for the Envoy. I was hoping to hold out to get a new envoy to work with the home battery system.

Ken Clifton
 
pclifton said:
We have a mixture of M190, M215 and M250 Enphase at our site.
Thanks! It's good to hear more information from a mixed site.
pclifton said:
Our M190(s) were installed in late 2010 and early 2011. Two of the M190(s) were very early units with MC4 connectors that could be field disassembled -- both failed after 2 years. Yesterday another M190 started limiting power to 136 watts instead of its usual 198-199. It was also producing the Grid Gone events several times per day. Enphase is sending its replacement today. That will bring our failures with the M190(s) up to 3 out of 24 in four years.

It is likely that you will receive one of the new M215IG-style M190. I believe it is identical to the M215s except for the firmware. It comes with a small section of Engage cable with M190 connectors on either end.
That's pretty similar to my site which currently has 3 M190 replacements out of 42 and 2 more units spitting out "Grid Gone" events daily.
pclifton said:
I am curious about the code mentioned in this thread. On our M190(s) the code is: 520-00008-r01-v01.08.00 - Sat Jan 31, 2015 08:02 AM EST. I assume that is fairly current.
Yes, that is what I have. The date only indicates when it was installed in your inverters. I have that firmware installed in all of my original-style M190s, but two were updated at an earlier date than the others:

520-00008-r01-v01.08.00 - Tue Jun 17, 2014 06:14 AM EDT
520-00008-r01-v01.08.00 - Sat Aug 02, 2014 06:07 PM EDT

Then all the rest were updated in January:

520-00008-r01-v01.08.00 - Mon Jan 19, 2015 03:41 PM EST

So mine were updated about 1.5 weeks before yours. It appears they tried this firmware for a while on the worst units (and sites, like Weatherman's) to see if it was safe and accomplished what they wanted for it. In my case, this firmware absolutely brought back one of my inverters from the dead when it was updated in June and that one has worked extremely well since that time. It reports "Grid Gone" multiple times each day, but its production is the same as all its neighbors'. OTOH, the one updated in August never had a production problem (that I could find) UNTIL it got the new firmware. Now it suffers "Grid Gone" events and partial production loss daily. I guess Enphase saw something in that one.

In any case, if this new firmware can prevent or delay replacements, then it is good for Enphase, good for owners AND good for the environment. (Even if the inverters eventually die even with the new firmware, later the better, IMO, since that likely means more total years of operation for the original investment.)
pclifton said:
None of our M215 or M250 inverters have failed.
To my knowledge there is only one failure of an M215 or M250 from owners on this MyNissanLeaf site, so far.
pclifton said:
All of the inverters here are on elevated pole arrays about 12 feet above ground. They get plenty of ventilation underneath.
All 42 of our M190s started life on the roof, with about 6 inches of space between the shingles and the bottom of the PV module frames. Now 12 of them have moved out to the pole-mounted array where they stay cool under nearly all conditions. It will be interesting to see if that has any impact on their failure rates. (I suspect the impact will be minor, since I did not see more failures in hot locations than colder ones.)
pclifton said:
One of my two Envoys may be about to die. It has been reporting false database corruption, false file system corruption and restarting several times today. This was happening before they tried to fix that issue today with the latest code for the Envoy. I was hoping to hold out to get a new envoy to work with the home battery system.
Why two Envoys? Are your arrays too far apart or on separate properties? Also, do you think the flash memory used in the Envoy is wearing out? Should I ask for new firmware to try to prevent such an issue? (Certainly bad firmware can destroy the flash memory prematurely.)

For reference, my Envoy has the following software version number and date:

Current Software Version R3.7.26 (7888b3)
Software Build Date Mon Aug 25, 2014 01:56 PM PDT

Finally, can you please provide a link to your system(s)?
 
RegGuheert said:
Any updates from others?
I have had two more M190s fail this year, making 5 out of 23 total (Row 87 on your spreadsheet). Enphase shipped M190IG replacements, but it took them 8 weeks to ship them. I have not seen that before. They kept blaming their new computerized inventory system, but I call BS on that. Do you think they are rationing them?

By the way, they are paying for labor to replace, as before.
 
It seems like Enphase is very inconsistent in their policy regarding m190 replacements.

I've gotten a reasonably good response, but only after it's obvious the micro is dead. Just degraded, even 20-30% reduction in power production doesn't cut it. For my array the m190 has to be dead before Enphase takes action. But, once they do, it has always been a very consistent response: one week to get the shipping notification and another week for delivery. Installation is paid for. The latest replacement is in transit without any delay in the normal routine, so I don't think they are running out of them.

Some people seem to do better, even getting them to replace the defective-but-not-yet-dead units. I've never been successful in doing that. That's why I'm still sitting on a half dozen or so defective units with no idea when they will be replaced.
 
dsinned said:
I forget, is the Envoy's firmware upgrade procedure simply to power cycle it?
I have no idea. I always just figured it had to be done by Enphase.
billg said:
I have had two more M190s fail this year, making 5 out of 23 total (Row 87 on your spreadsheet).
Thanks, Bill! I updated the entry for your system (as well as those of the others who have responded). Those failures bring your MTBF down to 27 years.
billg said:
Enphase shipped M190IG replacements, but it took them 8 weeks to ship them. I have not seen that before. They kept blaming their new computerized inventory system, but I call BS on that. Do you think they are rationing them?
I cannot imagine them running out of M190IGs, since I believe they are simply M215IGs with different firmware (and a different label). But the Engage sections they ship with the M190IGs are full custom. They do not even use the same wire as normal Engage cables. If they run out of them, they would not be able to ship the M190IGs.
billg said:
By the way, they are paying for labor to replace, as before.
Thanks. It's good to hear that both you and Weatherman are getting the replacement units installed by Enphase. I am my own installer, so I guess I don't get that benefit. I'm O.K. with that, since it gives me more flexibility to do things however they suit me. For instance I likely will upgrade the M190IGs to REAL Engage cables once I get a few of them here.
 
Weatherman said:
It seems like Enphase is very inconsistent in their policy regarding m190 replacements.

I've gotten a reasonably good response, but only after it's obvious the micro is dead. Just degraded, even 20-30% reduction in power production doesn't cut it. For my array the m190 has to be dead before Enphase takes action. But, once they do, it has always been a very consistent response: one week to get the shipping notification and another week for delivery. Installation is paid for. The latest replacement is in transit without any delay in the normal routine, so I don't think they are running out of them.
there was a noticeable deteriorating trend that corresponded to one particular M215. Over a period of several months, I did periodic and detailed parametric monitoring of DC and AC currents,
Some people seem to do better, even getting them to replace the defective-but-not-yet-dead units. I've never been successful in doing that. That's why I'm still sitting on a half dozen or so defective units with no idea when they will be replaced.
This is somewhat contrary to my experience. I had a degrading M215 that was obvious to me by continuously monitoring my array with Enlighten Manager. Of course, I waited till I was positive by monitoring AC currents, voltages, power inputs and outputs associated with this one microinverter. By doing this, eventually, it was intuitively obvious the inverter was slowly degrading, whether by comparing calculated power conversion efficiencies to the Enphase M215 specs (in particular, >96% CEC efficiency) or by simply studying graphical representations of all the other modules in the array and compared them to this one particular "odd ball" module's location.

When I contacted Enphase, they insisted on an seemingly unnecessary troubleshooting procedure. This required me to call in the Installer to swap out inverters; the one in question to the location of one of its neighbors, thereby connecting it to a neighboring PV panel to eliminate the possibility of a defective panel in its original location.

I did not feel this was necessary, because to measure the internal efficiency of a microinverter, all that is needed is compare the input power to its the output power and a common units of measure (watts). It does not matter what the input is as that is just a reference point for the conversion. If the ratio of input to output power can be observed to slowly increase (or conversely, in terms of efficiency, for the output power to input power to slowly decrease), then the inverter must be going bad. As such, even as a day to day efficiency calculation, (as an aside, this calculation must be done manually, as EM does not do it for you and probably for obvious reasons), it can be easily determined mathematically what is any given inverter's input to output conversion efficiency.

Some of my 17 inverters were determined to be on the high side (>95% efficient), some on the low side, but only slightly <95%, and this one particular inverter, not even a year old, <85% and slowly dropping over time. On average it was a full 10% lower than the rest. RED FLAG!!!

Nevertheless, Enphase Customer Support insisted on the swap, so I called my system Installer and they did that just as Enphase instructed, no questions asked. The finding? The same suspect inverter was now misbehaving while connected to its neighboring (known good) panel just as before the panel swap. BINGO! Now I have "proof" that the inverter is obviously unhealthy and not meeting Enphase specs. However, Enphase was all too quick to falsely ASSUME it was some sort of shading issue with my array. This too, could have been easily disproved by simply using Enlighten to confirm that to be a non-issue. Such absurd conjecture should be been an embarrassment to Enphase to have even been suggested at this point. Again, a microinverter's INTERNAL conversion efficiency has nothing to do with its input conditions.

To my amazement, Enphase was still unconvinced, but they reluctantly agreed to keep tabs on the suspect inverter (now using Enlighten to remote monitor it, as I had been doing, over a couple of additional weeks. This was to observe for themselves it was slowly degrading, which of course, it did by continuing to drop in efficiency by a few additional (and measureable) percentage points. Then, and only then, did Enphase FINALLY become convinced it was defective and thereby conceded to a warranty replacement. Unceremoniously, that took place over the next few weeks via a typical RMA process. PRESTO!! The problem immediately disappeared the day the unit was finally replaced with a new M215.

The moral of the story, if not for the full capabilities of Enlighten Manager, I would not have noticed the problem with a single M215 falling behind the performance curve compared to the others in the same array. Enlighten is a very powerful diagnostic tool provided the user has a basic understanding of Ohm's Law and good pair of eyes to notice trends in the graphically shaded module to module displays. I only wish the company that developed it, was more inclined to use it for troubleshooting themselves. Unfortunately, EM would be a much more effective tool if it embedded each micro's internal efficiency calculation in its graphical and/or tabularized performance measurements. Of course, this will never happen because then warranty claims may suddenly jump up to an much more unmanageable level. :mrgreen:
 
RegGuheert said:
Why two Envoys? Are your arrays too far apart or on separate properties? Also, do you think the flash memory used in the Envoy is wearing out? Should I ask for new firmware to try to prevent such an issue? (Certainly bad firmware can destroy the flash memory prematurely.)

For reference, my Envoy has the following software version number and date:

Current Software Version R3.7.26 (7888b3)
Software Build Date Mon Aug 25, 2014 01:56 PM PDT
Yes, the two systems are too far apart to get reliable power line communications to a single Envoy. The firmware you mention is the current firmware for the older series Envoy (I was told by Enphase yesterday) I do have a newer Envoy on my small system that has a later R3.11.30 firmware, but I was told that will not work with the four year old Envoy.

RegGuheert said:
Finally, can you please provide a link to your system(s)?
I had taken the public access offline and was just providing access through PVOutput (which is real nice). When Enphase changed the API and started charging for API access, I decided that it was not worth having to pay for the public to see my Enlighten. I turned it back on this evening. The small array has some shading due to be eliminated this summer :).
Here you go:
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Vhdk9078" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/c6JU105355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both are combined with good complete historical data on PVOutput at: http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?sid=4449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ken Clifton
 
Would nice to develop a simple way to monitor the efficiency calculations to spot decreases. My arrays are so shaded that it will be hard to notice production decreasing unless it's really blatant so it might take a while for me to notice this issue.
 
pclifton said:
One of my two Envoys may be about to die. It has been reporting false database corruption, false file system corruption and restarting several times today. This was happening before they tried to fix that issue today with the latest code for the Envoy. I was hoping to hold out to get a new envoy to work with the home battery system.
The short Envoy warranty is one of my concerns about an Enphase system, especially given the price of them - around $500 retail.

I'm on my second Envoy, the first one was proactively replaced by Enphase when it was about 2 years old with the current one about 3 years old (yay, my system is just over 5 years old!).

The part really should have a 5 year warranty instead of the 2 year warranty it currently has. Or the price of the Envoy should be reduced significantly. It certainly can't cost them more than a hundred dollars or so to manufacture.
 
drees said:
The part really should have a 5 year warranty instead of the 1 year warranty it currently has. Or the price of the Envoy should be reduced significantly. It certainly can't cost them more than a hundred dollars or so to manufacture.

I forget how much the price went up when they stopped charging for Enlighten but that's one of the reasons it's so expensive, it includess "lifetime" access to Enlighten.
 
QueenBee said:
I forget how much the price went up when they stopped charging for Enlighten but that's one of the reasons it's so expensive, it includess "lifetime" access to Enlighten.
I think it used to cost around $300 for the Envoy. But even if it includes "lifetime" access to Enlighten, then they should reduce the price for out-of-warranty Envoy replacements. As far as I can tell, they are going to make you pay full-price if your Envoy is unlucky enough to fail out of warranty. (Correction to above, the Envoy warranty is 2 years, not 1 year).
 
Reg,
It is a relatively new system, but I installed a 7000W ground-mount system a bit over a year ago using 28 M215 units at a friend's home. No issues so far, apart from the large 5th-wheel RV he has parked at the array's west end. If beneficial to you, I could post some additional data with irregular updates. His curiosity in PV was prompted by exceptionally high monthly electric bills and at least six large commercial solar farms within a couple miles of his home. Around here, even Costco has 600kWH installed on their roof and schools and Walmart have PV shade structures over large sections of their parking lots.
-- Bob
 
drees said:
QueenBee said:
I forget how much the price went up when they stopped charging for Enlighten but that's one of the reasons it's so expensive, it includess "lifetime" access to Enlighten.
I think it used to cost around $300 for the Envoy. But even if it includes "lifetime" access to Enlighten, then they should reduce the price for out-of-warranty Envoy replacements. As far as I can tell, they are going to make you pay full-price if your Envoy is unlucky enough to fail out of warranty. (Correction to above, the Envoy warranty is 2 years, not 1 year).
Yeah, agreed!
 
The Envoy is also very "low tech" in its current design. No built-in WiFi. No backlighted display. No standby (power saver) mode. Bulky, yet hard to see the readout. No built-in desktop stand.

For $500, none of these deficiencies should exist even at half the price! :roll:
 
dsinned said:
The Envoy is also very "low tech" in its current design. No built-in WiFi. No backlighted display. No standby (power saver) mode. Bulky, yet hard to see the readout. No built-in desktop stand.

For $500, none of these deficiencies should exist even at half the price! :roll:

I agree! My original Envoy bricked at just short of 5 years and I couldn't believe the replacement cost. I looked around for someplace to try and fix it, but no one would tackle it without the schematics, which Enphase wouldn't provide. I finally bought a replacement for $395 on eBay (new from a solar installer) after 4.5 months in the dark (data-wise). My M190s started failing shortly after hooking up the new Envoy, so it was necessary as I wouldn't have any warranty coverage without it - or even have known that I had a problem.
 
drees said:
I think it used to cost around $300 for the Envoy. But even if it includes "lifetime" access to Enlighten, then they should reduce the price for out-of-warranty Envoy replacements. As far as I can tell, they are going to make you pay full-price if your Envoy is unlucky enough to fail out of warranty. (Correction to above, the Envoy warranty is 2 years, not 1 year).

Yes, I specifically asked the question: "Any price break for replacement Envoys for failed units?" of Enphase. I was told "no." I was also told to purchase any replacement Envoy through the normal dealer/installer network. It does not seem fair to pay the extra bucks for "Enlighten Access" twice... Once, maybe, but a replacement should not include that cost again.

By the way, I just received the FedEx shipping notice for the replacement M190 that was initiated by my support call on Monday, so it took 3 days for the unit to be shipped.

Ken Clifton
 
HighDesertDriver said:
Reg,
It is a relatively new system, but I installed a 7000W ground-mount system a bit over a year ago using 28 M215 units at a friend's home. No issues so far, apart from the large 5th-wheel RV he has parked at the array's west end. If beneficial to you, I could post some additional data with irregular updates. His curiosity in PV was prompted by exceptionally high monthly electric bills and at least six large commercial solar farms within a couple miles of his home. Around here, even Costco has 600kWH installed on their roof and schools and Walmart have PV shade structures over large sections of their parking lots.
-- Bob
Yes, I am interested! Ever since Enphase changed to the new public websites on September 4, 2013, I have only been able to track failures via first-hand reports. But I still insist on having a link to the system so that I can verify key dates, etc. Can you provide the public website for this system? Thanks!
 
pclifton said:
I had taken the public access offline and was just providing access through PVOutput (which is real nice). When Enphase changed the API and started charging for API access, I decided that it was not worth having to pay for the public to see my Enlighten. I turned it back on this evening. The small array has some shading due to be eliminated this summer :).
Here you go:
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Vhdk9078" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/c6JU105355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Both are combined with good complete historical data on PVOutput at: http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?sid=4449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ken Clifton

Hey Ken did you have a power outage yesterday? Just curious. Looks like both systems were off until 1pm? Also looks like you had production 6-8pm on Thursday, around 400 watts continuous?!
 
billg said:
My original Envoy bricked at just short of 5 years and I couldn't believe the replacement cost.
Your post caused me to realize that while I can no longer see microinverter failures, I CAN see Envoy failures. Of course there may be some false negatives (like in drees' case where there is no clear signature) and some false positives (such as other types of outages), but I expect the detection is accurate enough for an MTBF estimate for the Envoy units.

I have updated my Enphase Microinverter and Envoy Field MTBF Estimate spreadsheet to now include the Envoys as well as some M250s which are beginning to show up.

Here are the results:

Envoys installed with M190 microinverters: ~20 years MTBF (19 failures in about 80 systems)
Envoys installed with M215 microinverters: ~30 years MTBF (4 failures in about 25 systems)

One system has apparently experienced TWO Envoy failures so far!

It does appear to me that the very earliest Envoy units are the ones most likely to fail, but I will reserve final judgment on that until a few more years have passed.

Unfortunately, the failure rate of the Envoys is way too high for systems expected to last 25 years, even though just a single unit is typically installed. And this is just MTBF: unfortunately the LIFE of these inverters may turn out to be even lower than these numbers. Certainly if Enphase can design and manufacture microinverters (M215) which can achieve a demonstrated MTBF in the 100s of years while processing a non-trivial amount of power in a harsh environment, then they should be able to design and manufacture a signal processing device (that connects to the exact same power lines for power and communcations as the microinverters) which can have a very long life and an appropriately-long MTBF. Since this unit is required for warranty support of the microinverters, a 25-year warranty to match their microinverters should be included.

Instead, we have the replacement-cost situation which billg described above and Enphase has not even addressed the obvious problem that drees noted:
drees said:
But even if it includes "lifetime" access to Enlighten, then they should reduce the price for out-of-warranty Envoy replacements.
Going through all the systems again in the spreadsheet after a couple of years was an interesting exercise. Here are a few observations:

- A nontrivial fraction of owners have added more microinverters to their systems over the years. For some, this is true even after experiencing a large number of microinverter failures.
- All systems have produced power continuously since they were installed. This is a far cry from many (most?) standalone PV systems which go offline after a few short years.
- There is no obvious droop in energy production with time on any of the systems I have seen, which indicates that even those systems which have had significant failures are being maintained.

Please have a look at the spreadsheet and ensure that I have represented your system and your Envoy and microinverter failures accurately. If anyone experiences an Envoy failure in the future, please report it here.
 
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