EV1 compared to Leaf

[GregH]

The EV1 compares much closer to the Leaf than the Tesla.. Initial leases on the EV1 lead acid (60-70 miles range) I think were $650/mo? Also you had to buy a $2000 magnecharger... By mid 1997 some government incentives kicked in and the lease cost came down. That's when I jumped in. The 60lb magnecharger could charge the car at 6.6kW which made possible several trips from coast to coast... albeit at 2hrs sitting in RV parks per 1hr driving. Yes the gen2 NiMH car could do 120-130 miles range but personally I found the Ovonic batteries no more reliable than the Delphi lead acid. Also the TMS hack on gen2 to cool the NiMH made the car less efficient. The EV1 was quicker than a Leaf, more fun to drive. But the Leaf is more practical in that you can put more people (or a full size bike) in it. I think the 2013 Leaf with 6.6kW charging and 80-90 miles range stacks up nicely against the re-issued gen1 EV1s with Panasonic lead acid (as compared to Delphi).. Also 80-90 miles range and 6.6kW charging. Would I trade in my Leaf to have my EV1 back again? In a heartbeat.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13934&start=8

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Don't forget the Leaf has four doors, a back seat, beaucoup airbags and 5 star crash ratings. The EV1 was a two seater and a death trap by comparison.

 

[davewill]

I disagree. I'd argue that market forces show that people will pay for range. Tesla is selling more cars than Nissan or Chevy for a car 2-3x the price. Even there they offered three different battery sizes. No one wanted the smallest battery.

It shows that people will pay for range, but the manufacturers don't want or know how to provide adequate range. The ELR is less range than the Volt despite a much higher price. Going the wrong way.

It shows that SOME people will pay for range, and if money isn't an object, then they will choose the bigger batteries. Only a very tiny percentage of the marketplace can afford to pay Tesla prices...and Tesla prices are what it takes to up the range right now. Tesla promises to improve that and come out with cheaper cars, but I'll believe it when I see it...I strongly suspect Tesla will miss their price targets.

The truth in what you're saying is that 80-100 miles isn't really quite enough for the American mass market, just as 40k wasn't cheap enough. I think they will have to get to 120-150mi ranges at sub-$30k prices before they will have people beating down the door to buy EVs.

 

[Klayfish]

The truth in what you're saying is that 80-100 miles isn't really quite enough for the American mass market, just as 40k wasn't cheap enough. I think they will have to get to 120-150mi ranges at sub-$30k prices before they will have people beating down the door to buy EVs.

Agree, to a point. The LEAF happens to fit my needs very well, but for many "mass market" people, it wouldn't. When price comes down and range is about double what the LEAF has, interest will pick. Even then, I still don't think it'd reach huge numbers. There's still the charging issue to overcome. Even with L2, the LEAF takes several hours. An ICE can "recharge" in 3 minutes.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Oil crisis would be the big driver. Then more cars sold would create clamor for more charge stations.

The EV1 had an electrically heated windshield and heat pump climate control, not bad.

But like all compliance cars, impractical outside of CA. Gotta have service available, especially with new tech.

 

[joeaux]

Interesting that the EV1 had the same T shaped battery arrangement as the Volt. It is one of the reasons I never considered a Volt, that missing 5th seat.

Yup. If you look closely at the EV1 propulsion system and the EV side of the Volt propulsion system it's obvious that the technology in Volt is a descendant of EV1. IMHO it's the reason the Volt is such a great car. GM actually learned from EV1 and applied it to the Volt. Heck, take a look at Spark EV. You can see EV1 and Volt technology all over it. Full circle. From BEV to EREV to BEV. GM has at least been trying on and off to get people interested. I bought a Leaf SL because GM is not telling anyone anything about when Spark EV is coming to the rest of the world. Got tired of waiting. Researched Leaf, leased one. My wife and I LOVE the Leaf. Great car, great tech.

 

[Boourns]

Agree, to a point. The LEAF happens to fit my needs very well, but for many "mass market" people, it wouldn't.

I think that for most people current EV technology could work just fine. The problem is that it requires some sort of forethought that many people aren't willing to do.

 

[planet4ever]

The EV1 compares much closer to the Leaf than the Tesla.

I was comparing the EV1 to the Tesla Roadster, not the Model S. Both the EV1 and the Roadster were two seat sports cars. The EV1 could not be purchased, but despite the (relatively) low lease price it was rumored that it cost GM $100K per vehicle to build. As I said, using that comparison, "EVs have come a very long ways in range and amenities."

Ray

 

[TomT]

+1!

Would I trade in my Leaf to have my EV1 back again? In a heartbeat!

 

[evnow]

EV1 wouldn't pass today's crash tests (so said Lutz).

 

[TonyWilliams]

rumored that it cost GM $100K per vehicle to build. As I said, using that comparison, "EVs have come a very long ways in range and amenities."

Ray

GM claimed $1 billion in costs divided by 1160 units.... $880,000 each.

 

[JeremyW]

For a good book on the development of the EV1, check out The Car That Could. Puts a lot of things into perspective... I'm on my iPad so I can't type out much but it's interesting to read about thing like range, marketability, charging standards wars (inductive/conductive at the time), price, overheating batteries, battery makers juicing their specs... All the same stuff we deal with today, only better! Of course reading about how the first generation cars were decided to be lease only can make your eyes a bit misty.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

For a good book on the development of the EV1, check out The Car That Could. Puts a lot of things into perspective... I'm on my iPad so I can't type out much but it's interesting to read about thing like range, marketability, charging standards wars (inductive/conductive at the time), price, overheating batteries, battery makers juicing their specs... All the same stuff we deal with today, only better! Of course reading about how the first generation cars were decided to be lease only can make your eyes a bit misty.

I find the popular negative review of the book on amazon even more interesting. Giving history to how GM was really trying to kill EVs at every step and only made the EV1 because the CARB forced them too. Much like today. http://www.amazon.com/review/R2LG729VGKDXKH/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2LG729VGKDXKH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Interesting that the EV1 had the same T shaped battery arrangement as the Volt. It is one of the reasons I never considered a Volt, that missing 5th seat.

Yup. If you look closely at the EV1 propulsion system and the EV side of the Volt propulsion system it's obvious that the technology in Volt is a descendant of EV1. IMHO it's the reason the Volt is such a great car.

It's one of the big reasons I don't like the Volt. Who's great idea was it to take up passenger space with big batteries in the way of everything. Giant spine down the middle of the passenger cabin preventing a 5th seat. The Volt has a crowded engine compartment, cramped cabin and shallow trunk. Compare that to a Tesla with completely open cabin, huge trunk and even a frunk. Where did all the machinery go. Why can no one else approach that level of good design. The Leafs batteries are pretty unobtrusive. Has a big spacious cabin and normal size trunk. Not bad.

 

[RonDawg]

[It's one of the big reasons I don't like the Volt. Who's great idea was it to take up passenger space with big batteries in the way of everything. Giant spine down the middle of the passenger cabin preventing a 5th seat. The Volt has a crowded engine compartment, cramped cabin and shallow trunk. Compare that to a Tesla with completely open cabin, huge trunk and even a frunk. Where did all the machinery go. Why can no one else approach that level of good design. The Leafs batteries are pretty unobtrusive. Has a big spacious cabin and normal size trunk. Not bad.

Remember that unlike the Tesla and the Leaf, the Volt has to have an ICE and its associated components packaged in along with the batteries. Batteries can be made to fit in much smaller places as well, splitting them up if necessary. Can't do that with an engine block.

Other PHEVs have more interior room but less EV-only range.

 

[GregH]

I find the popular negative review of the book on amazon even more interesting. Giving history to how GM was really trying to kill EVs at every step and only made the EV1 because the CARB forced them too. Much like today. http://www.amazon.com/review/R2LG729VGKDXKH/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2LG729VGKDXKH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Classic Doug K.. Not so much a negative review of the book so much as GM itself. He used to protest in front of Hummer dealerships. The book was written before the car launched in late 1996 and is a good snapshot of the things going on at that time. As Doug points out, plenty of other things going on between this book and Who Killed the Electric car.. you could almost write another book on what was going on behind the scenes while the EV1s were on the road as compared to just before (this book) and just after (the movie).

 

[Assaf]

Wasn't the EV1 a 2-seater sports car?

If yes, you need to compare it with the Tesla Roadster. Not the Leaf which was conceived and designed to be a compact/midsize family car.

 

[joeaux]

It's one of the big reasons I don't like the Volt. Who's great idea was it to take up passenger space with big batteries in the way of everything. Giant spine down the middle of the passenger cabin preventing a 5th seat. The Volt has a crowded engine compartment, cramped cabin and shallow trunk. Compare that to a Tesla with completely open cabin, huge trunk and even a frunk. Where did all the machinery go. Why can no one else approach that level of good design. The Leafs batteries are pretty unobtrusive. Has a big spacious cabin and normal size trunk. Not bad.

I get so tired of this argument. That "giant spine" never gets in the way. Yeah only two people can ride in the back at a time but how many times do you actually have 5 adults in your car? Right. And as far as room in the trunk, it's huge on the Volt with the seats down. The Leaf has a tiny space with the "hump". Now put the seats down and all of a sudden the Leaf has a bunch of room too. And look, you can not compare a Leaf to a Volt. The Volt is a superior car in about every way. It just is. I own them both. I drive them both every day. The Leaf is a wonderful, fun car. The Volt is a wonderful, fun car. But in the end the Volt is the superior automobile when it comes to comfort, ride and range. GM did an outstanding job with the Volt. I've owned a lot of very, very nice cars over the years and the Volt is hands down the best car I've ever owned. Not because it's a GM car. Not because it's American made (although that's a big plus) but because it's a great car. And lastly, if you don't think that Volt is a great design, you don't know squat about the car. The end. Whew. I'm spent.

 

[wsbsteven]

Wasn't the EV1 a 2-seater sports car?

If yes, you need to compare it with the Tesla Roadster. Not the Leaf which was conceived and designed to be a compact/midsize family car.

You're not the first to say this in the thread. It's my impression that the Tesla Roadster was intended to be a sports car with a roadster body class hence the name. Was the EV1 intended also to be a sports car? Wiki has the EV1 as an 'Electric subcompact car' and Leaf as a compact. Not that Wiki is always right but with my experience, that is exactly how I would classify them.

My opinion is that a sub compact and a compact have much more in common with each other. If you want to explain why a sub compact car should be directly compared to a sports car because they both have two seats and an electric motor, I'm all ears.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

The Leaf has a tiny space with the "hump". Now put the seats down and all of a sudden the Leaf has a bunch of room too. And look, you can not compare a Leaf to a Volt. The Volt is a superior car in about every way. It just is. I own them both. I drive them both every day. The Leaf is a wonderful, fun car. The Volt is a wonderful, fun car. But in the end the Volt is the superior automobile when it comes to comfort, ride and range. GM did an outstanding job with the Volt. I've owned a lot of very, very nice cars over the years and the Volt is hands down the best car I've ever owned. Not because it's a GM car. Not because it's American made (although that's a big plus) but because it's a great car. And lastly, if you don't think that Volt is a great design, you don't know squat about the car. The end. Whew. I'm spent.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Glad you like your vehicles.

I hardly consider the Volt "superior to the Leaf in almost any way".
It has a claustrophobic cramped interior, shallow trunk, poor visibility, low ceiling. Less than half the electric range while still at a much higher price. Center console is a buggy usability nightmare (Leaf isn't that great either but not as bad). Also the beating when back windows are open is horrendous in the Volt. The Volt has the measly 3.3kw charger and no quick charge option. Its impressive because it has a gas engine which contradicts the whole reason for getting a BEV. Its a compromise in many ways. I like the Cruze. The Volt, built on the Cruze platform, has less space, less trunk space, worse gas mileage while costing a ton more.
What hump? The Leaf's charger was moved in the 2013 to be under the hood in case thats the hump being referenced.