FIAT 500e

[TonyWilliams]

There is no QC option...
The Chevy Spark is another to watch out for, the specs look good. 400 lbs of torque should make for a lot of fun considering a car of its size here in Europe would only have a 1.0l 70 hp engine with around 65 lbs of torque. And it's got quick charge.

I'm convinced that the "400 ft/lbs" of torque is GM measuring the output at the gear reduction box, and not at the motor output shaft. With a LEAF having only 180-200 ft/lbs, there is NO WAY that the GM motor has double the torque.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

There is no QC option...
The Chevy Spark is another to watch out for, the specs look good. 400 lbs of torque should make for a lot of fun considering a car of its size here in Europe would only have a 1.0l 70 hp engine with around 65 lbs of torque. And it's got quick charge.

I'm convinced that the "400 ft/lbs" of torque is GM measuring the output at the gear reduction box, and not at the motor output shaft. With a LEAF having only 180-200 ft/lbs, there is NO WAY that the GM motor has double the torque.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

Isn't that better then at the output at the reduction box ?

Wouldn't the motor actually have less torque because it has to spin faster and the reducer slows it down and raises the torque ?

For more torque though wouldn't all they have to do is just up the current to the motor if current = torque (mainly ) ?

You can pull a lot of C from those A123 cells.

 

[edatoakrun]

The Fiat 500e is the best electric vehicle that doesn’t cost $100,000. And it’s the first EV I’d consider owning.

I’ve been looking for an affordable, entertaining EV for years. And failing. The Nissan Leaf has all the charm of a dishwasher. The Ford Focus Electric is a litany of compromises. The Honda Fit EV – while fun – feels like a plastic penalty box. And it’s best to not even mention the Mitsubishi i or the forthcoming (and poorly named) Smart ForTwo ED.

All of these EVs are an uninspiring mishmash of an existing model with a hastily engineered electric drivetrain stuffed inside. You could say the same about the 500e. But you’re wrong. By slapping an electric motor up front and a battery pack from stem to stern, Fiat has managed to make the 500 better than its gas-powered siblings. And here’s the kicker: After spending a day with one, I can say it’s arguably a better value.

Allow me to explain...

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/04/2013-fiat-500e/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure what reaction I'd get posting that at a Fiat (I own an 82 2000 Spider) site.

But if it were likely to ever be practicable to add CHAdeMO capability to the 500e, I might be able to overcome my aversion to compliance BEVs...

 

[redLEAF]

Another review ... I like this comment:

'The 500e may owe its existence to a government decree, but it doesn’t drive like a car that was grudgingly created to satisfy regulators. Fiat/Chrysler has done a lot to make its EV a viable choice for at least some 500 intenders—provided they live in California."

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/2013_fiat_500e_first_drive/

Hope they do make this available elsewhere, we've got two Fiat dealer's in town so perhaps our chances our better ... Fiat brought the 500e alongside the ICE version on its first year to the Chicago Auto Show so you never know.

 

[Boomer23]

Nice quick review of the 500e on Motorweek TV this week. No performance data, but nice photos of various color schemes and interior. Their overall impressions were positive, with comments of "very spirited and incredibly balanced". Regen braking "feels like normal braking", so don't expect A pedal regen like BMW and Tesla drivers prefer.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I used to record and watch Motorweek but grew tired of the fact they almost never give a negative review to any vehicle.

 

[johnqh]

The price will hurt them. Smart Fortwo ED is more than $5000 less. In percentage term, it is 25% cheaper (after Fed tax credit + CA rebate).

 

[Boomer23]

^^^
I used to record and watch Motorweek but grew tired of the fact they almost never give a negative review to any vehicle.

Most cars are pretty good these days. You hardly get a negative review on any media, from what I've seen. But I think I get some good feel about the cars from Motorweek's video of the cars on the slalom or the track, things like body roll and turn-in, and acceleration numbers. You can also get some idea of whether the manufacturer has hit its mark with the car's design or not. Example: in today's episode, they tested the new Lexus 250IS and the F Sport version. While they gave the car good overall reviews, they were clear that it works better as a solid and comfortable highway cruiser than as a track day car. With cars as good as the Lexus and its competition, that's about as much differentiation as I expect. You can also tell a lot about rear seat room from the video of their staff sitting back there, much better than published seat width and shoulder room in a magazine.

 

[Boomer23]

The price will hurt them. Smart Fortwo ED is more than $5000 less. In percentage term, it is 25% cheaper (after Fed tax credit + CA rebate).

IMHO, most people who really compare the Fiat with the Smart will be able to tell a real car from a glorified NEV. But that's just my opinion.

 

[johnqh]

The price will hurt them. Smart Fortwo ED is more than $5000 less. In percentage term, it is 25% cheaper (after Fed tax credit + CA rebate).

IMHO, most people who really compare the Fiat with the Smart will be able to tell a real car from a glorified NEV. But that's just my opinion.

Good try, but no substance.

Fortwo is the ideal city car, great for parking. 500e gives more flexibility on usage. Seats 4 and better highway experience.

Fiat is trying hard to lower the price. There is supposedly a $2000 Fiat rebate in addition to the Fed and state incentives, plus 12days of rental car/year.

When I get my second EV, most likely it will be one of these two. Will have to wait for the test drives.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

^^^
I used to record and watch Motorweek but grew tired of the fact they almost never give a negative review to any vehicle.

not sure I understand your reasoning. its a new car. its not like it has history behind it so not a lot of negativity can come from it unless its a total design joke. the only real negative comments I see anymore are reviews of models that had bad reliability data from previous models things like "not sure the new design addresses previous reliability issues concerning XX..." kind of statements

besides, its an EV which really makes it better because they are better. quiet, smooth, and all that

 

[Boomer23]

The price will hurt them. Smart Fortwo ED is more than $5000 less. In percentage term, it is 25% cheaper (after Fed tax credit + CA rebate).

IMHO, most people who really compare the Fiat with the Smart will be able to tell a real car from a glorified NEV. But that's just my opinion.

Good try, but no substance.

Fortwo is the ideal city car, great for parking. 500e gives more flexibility on usage. Seats 4 and better highway experience.

Fiat is trying hard to lower the price. There is supposedly a $2000 Fiat rebate in addition to the Fed and state incentives, plus 12days of rental car/year.

When I get my second EV, most likely it will be one of these two. Will have to wait for the test drives.

I agree, I was just feeling a little snarky last night and less inclined to delve into detail.

The driving range difference may also justify the price difference, don't you think? Approx 87 miles EPA for the Fiat and a claimed 67 as I recall for the Smart.

I was also thinking that the entry level LEAF S model at $28,800 before incentives is a huge challenge for these two cars, given the LEAF's much greater interior space and utility. Unless one really wants a tiny city car or a cabrio, or a sporty little box like the Fiat, the LEAF S is pretty impressive competition.

 

[EVDRIVER]

It's a pity electric cars are not allowed to coast, surely coasting is more efficient than regen ?

The VW Golf electric will have variable regen via paddles similar to the auto shifters on the steering wheel. I think that's a great idea and hopefully it will have 0 regen when not on the throttle.

All EVs can coast, every EV ever made, there is always a neutral point on the pedal.

 

[GRA]

The price will hurt them. Smart Fortwo ED is more than $5000 less. In percentage term, it is 25% cheaper (after Fed tax credit + CA rebate).

IMHO, most people who really compare the Fiat with the Smart will be able to tell a real car from a glorified NEV. But that's just my opinion.

Good try, but no substance.

Fortwo is the ideal city car, great for parking. 500e gives more flexibility on usage. Seats 4 and better highway experience.

Fiat is trying hard to lower the price. There is supposedly a $2000 Fiat rebate in addition to the Fed and state incentives, plus 12days of rental car/year.

When I get my second EV, most likely it will be one of these two. Will have to wait for the test drives.

I think Boomer23's point had substance. The Smart is intended as a city car and will never be anything else. It's a brick at highway speeds so its already short range will be even shorter in fast rush-hour freeway commutes, and while the electric motor eliminates the single biggest complaint about the car (the awful transmission in the ICE) and improves some other things, most of the shortcomings remain. The problem is that a short city car's raison d'etre is an ability to parallel park in spaces too short for other cars. If you're an apartment dweller who can charge near/at work during the day or who happens to be one of the lucky few who have public charging near their residence, well and good, but why would anyone who owns a home with a garage and can afford either opt for the Smart? The sole reason I can think of is that Smart will be the first EV to offer battery leasing with a capacity warranty in the U.S., so for people who are worried about long-term durability that may be the critical factor (and will also lower the MSRP). I feel all EV companies will have to offer this eventually to get the MSRPs down, the sooner the better. It also puts the onus on the car companies to be honest about their battery life in different conditions and price the battery lease accordingly; if they lie, they are the ones on the hook for an early replacement.

Until on-street public charging becomes widespread, the only reasonably-sized niche I see the SMART ED and similar city cars filling in the U.S. is for car-sharing services, for which they are near-ideal, and for take-out food delivery. I think Toyota made the right decision to restrict the Scion eQ to fleet sales for that reason. The 500e (and SparkEV) are a lot more car for the money than the Smart ED, even though they're not much bigger.

 

[johnqh]

I think Boomer23's point had substance. The Smart is intended as a city car and will never be anything else. It's a brick at highway speeds so its already short range will be even shorter in fast rush-hour freeway commutes, and while the electric motor eliminates the single biggest complaint about the car (the awful transmission in the ICE) and improves some other things, most of the shortcomings remain. The problem is that a short city car's raison d'etre is an ability to parallel park in spaces too short for other cars. If you're an apartment dweller who can charge near/at work during the day or who happens to be one of the lucky few who have public charging near their residence, well and good, but why would anyone who owns a home with a garage and can afford either opt for the Smart? The sole reason I can think of is that Smart will be the first EV to offer battery leasing with a capacity warranty in the U.S., so for people who are worried about long-term durability that may be the critical factor (and will also lower the MSRP). I feel all EV companies will have to offer this eventually to get the MSRPs down, the sooner the better. It also puts the onus on the car companies to be honest about their battery life in different conditions and price the battery lease accordingly; if they lie, they are the ones on the hook for an early replacement.

Until on-street public charging becomes widespread, the only reasonably-sized niche I see the SMART ED and similar city cars filling in the U.S. is for car-sharing services, for which they are near-ideal, and for take-out food delivery. I think Toyota made the right decision to restrict the Scion eQ to fleet sales for that reason. The 500e (and SparkEV) are a lot more car for the money than the Smart ED, even though they're not much bigger.

You were repeating what I said about Smart's appeal to urban drivers.

I think the different opinion is on who are the typical Smart buyers. You may think they are singles who live in apartments. I disagree because they want to get out of the city on weekends with friends (remember your single days?) and Smart is not a good fit for that. Instead, I think the existing Smart owners are two-car families who use Smart as commuter car for weekdays. For them, I don't see any reason to get the ICE version when the ED is out if they have a garage.

Fiat 500, on the other hand, appeals to singles or young couples (without kids). It is too small for a family with kids. It is useful for weekend longer journals out of the city. So, for this target market, most will live in apartments without the ability to charge.

Like I said, I am considering both. I agree that 500e offers a lot more. The issue is that the extra features are not important for a commuter car.

By the way, there is no way that car sharing service could use EV. They make money if people fill all the time slots. They cannot afford if one driver uses up most of the charges, and it has to stay grounded for 4 hours before the next customer can drive.

Instead, car sharing is the enabler for EV, because people no longer need to get the car for all usage. Instead, they can get the EV for the most common usage, and use car sharing for the occasional Ikea run and longer trips.

 

[RonDawg]

I used to record and watch Motorweek but grew tired of the fact they almost never give a negative review to any vehicle.

If you're looking for an outright "This Sucks!" no you will not get that from MotorWeek. But they will offer criticism where warranted.

 

[cwerdna]

I used to record and watch Motorweek but grew tired of the fact they almost never give a negative review to any vehicle.

If you're looking for an outright "This Sucks!" no you will not get that from MotorWeek. But they will offer criticism where warranted.

IMHO, their criticism still tends to be somewhat rare and err.... (for the lack of a better term) stated in a "politically correct" manner.

 

[GRA]

<snip all to here>

By the way, there is no way that car sharing service could use EV. They make money if people fill all the time slots. They cannot afford if one driver uses up most of the charges, and it has to stay grounded for 4 hours before the next customer can drive.

Instead, car sharing is the enabler for EV, because people no longer need to get the car for all usage. Instead, they can get the EV for the most common usage, and use car sharing for the occasional Ikea run and longer trips.

Someone needs to tell Car2Go in San Diego that their 2nd gen. Smart EVs don't work for car-sharing:

http://evnewsreport.com/tag/san-diego-car2go/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[johnqh]

<snip all to here>

By the way, there is no way that car sharing service could use EV. They make money if people fill all the time slots. They cannot afford if one driver uses up most of the charges, and it has to stay grounded for 4 hours before the next customer can drive.

Instead, car sharing is the enabler for EV, because people no longer need to get the car for all usage. Instead, they can get the EV for the most common usage, and use car sharing for the occasional Ikea run and longer trips.

Someone needs to tell Car2Go in San Diego that their 2nd gen. Smart EVs don't work for car-sharing:

http://evnewsreport.com/tag/san-diego-car2go/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You know the Smart ED is not released yet, don't you?

Pretty smart for PR though.

 

[GRA]

<snip all to here>

By the way, there is no way that car sharing service could use EV. They make money if people fill all the time slots. They cannot afford if one driver uses up most of the charges, and it has to stay grounded for 4 hours before the next customer can drive.

Instead, car sharing is the enabler for EV, because people no longer need to get the car for all usage. Instead, they can get the EV for the most common usage, and use car sharing for the occasional Ikea run and longer trips.

Someone needs to tell Car2Go in San Diego that their 2nd gen. Smart EVs don't work for car-sharing:

http://evnewsreport.com/tag/san-diego-car2go/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You know the Smart ED is not released yet, don't you?

Pretty smart for PR though.

The third gen isn't, but Car2Go has been using the 2nd gen for over a year now very successfully. The 3rd gen. is cheaper with better performance and range, so should be even more successful.