Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[electriccarfan]

Isn't Arizona a Carb State? The EV1 was available in California & Southern Arizona way back when.

Or, is it Kia that saying its not to be sold outside of California?

Arizona is a CARB state, as is Washington. But, they are not CARB- "Zero Emission Vehicle" states.

CARB-ZEV - California’s ZEV program has now been adopted by the states of Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island and Vermont. These states, known as the “Section 177 states,” have chosen to adopt California's air quality standards in lieu of federal requirements as authorized under Section 177 of the federal Clean Air Act. Additionally, California’s GHG standards are now federal law. Maine, New Jersey and Washington DC are participating with ZEV initiatives, but are not signatory CARB-ZEV states.

Oh, I see. I understand now. I wasn't up to speed on all that since here in Ohio, we aren't a CARB state or anything remotely close. I'm ashamed to live in a state that still thinks its the 1800s. People here a lot of times even cut off their car's catalytic converter when they go bad (rust out or an O2 censor goes bad), and they just run straight pipe. Since there's no emissions testing here, they get away with it. Its a shame, really.

And the state government is in no way worried about giving a little effort to enforce anything like this.

 

[dgalvan]

Now if only a couple 7 passenger EVs would come out at somewhat reasonable costs (i.e. Tesla is out of my budget by far!). I do need to plan to replace our minivan (160K miles on it) in the next few years....

This is what I am on the lookout for as well. Our Hyundai Santa Fe has 180k miles on it, and I'm interested in 7 passenger options for the future. (Kids getting older and want to bring friends along; extended family visits and would be nice to travel in one vehicle, etc.)

The realistic options on the horizon seem to be PHEV SUVs. And those are pricey at t
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV supposed to reach the U.S. next year, but is only 5 passengers.
Volkswagen Cross Coupe GTE also next year, with 7 passengers ("up to 20 miles electric range")
Volvo XC90 T8 plugin hybride (7 passengers but way expensive)
Tesla Model X (way expensiver)

https://transportevolved.com/2015/01/12/2015-naias-volkswagen-previews-2017-plug-suv-five-seat-cross-coupe-gte-concept/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TimLee]

...
Volkswagen Cross Coupe GTE also next year, with 7 passengers ("up to 20 miles electric range")
...

A $5 billion investment by Volkswagen to expand the Chattanooga plant and build it here :!:

 

[jstack6]

We also want to check out the SOUL EV after 2 LEAF. Too bad they are not in Arizona yet. We've heard they will be here in February 2015 which is not to far away. Now if only I could order my Tesla GEN III now and not have to wait for 2016 or so.
Our Focus EV has been great for 2 years with battery cooling so no capacity loss after 2 years. I hope Nissan is watching and learning. They even say they have a 250 mile EV for 2016=17 and GM says they have the BOLT coming but not until 2017. It's a great time to be driving 100% Electric. We are the pioneers. =D-----

 

[electriccarfan]

We also want to check out the SOUL EV after 2 LEAF. Too bad they are not in Arizona yet. We've heard they will be here in February 2015 which is not to far away. Now if only I could order my Tesla GEN III now and not have to wait for 2016 or so.
Our Focus EV has been great for 2 years with battery cooling so no capacity loss after 2 years. I hope Nissan is watching and learning. They even say they have a 250 mile EV for 2016=17 and GM says they have the BOLT coming but not until 2017. It's a great time to be driving 100% Electric. We are the pioneers. =D-----

I sure hope Nissan does get with the picture and incorporate Thermal Management into the 2nd Gen Leaf. I'm tired of losing big time range in these winter temps. Since winter kicked in 2-3 weeks ago (temps below 40F) around here, the temps have stayed below 30F and haven't gone any higher (day or night). Most days its been below 9F (and no higher; day or night). Its only now that they forecast that we'll be in the high 20s-30s next week, all week.

I've been seeing no more than 50-55 Miles per charge (minimal heat and efficient driving) out of my 2014 Leaf. I only have a 10 mile commute (with as much as +5 miles in all), so I can swing it. But, it would be nice to drive to another town 50-60 Miles away even in winter. Its a major hindrance. I would like to be able to do big road trips like you can with a Model S, and recharge in 20-30 Minutes per stop.

 

[mwalsh]

I sure hope Nissan does get with the picture and incorporate Thermal Management into the 2nd Gen Leaf. I'm tired of losing big time range in these winter temps.

You'd still lose range. Without plugging in, where do you think the energy to run the TMS would come from?

 

[electriccarfan]

I sure hope Nissan does get with the picture and incorporate Thermal Management into the 2nd Gen Leaf. I'm tired of losing big time range in these winter temps.

You'd still lose range. Without plugging in, where do you think the energy to run the TMS would come from?

Yes, but you would only lose a small amount of energy compared to how much you lose just because the outside air happens to be cold. Right off the bat, when I boot-up my Leaf I can't use something like, half the battery capacity. Of course I know the capacity will return once warmer temps come back, but we shouldn't have to deal with that. I've also noticed that my battery SOC drop quicker when very cold out. Tesla incorporates Thermal Management into the S (and I believe the Roadster before that). They will no doubt have it in all future models. Ford uses it in their PHEVs, and Focus EV. Heck, even GM was kind enough to incorporate this necessity in the Volt (and I'm sure the Bolt will have it too). Also, I would have to guess the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has it as well.

Its not a big drain on an EVs battery though (and certainly wouldn't exceed 40-50% range loss). A small battery heater (and A/C for summer) is totally feasible. It wouldn't even add that much to the total cost either. And it would allow better long-term battery health.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yes, but you would only lose a small amount of energy compared to how much you lose just because the outside air happens to be cold. Right off the bat, when I boot-up my Leaf I can't use something like, half the battery capacity. Of course I know the capacity will return once warmer temps come back, but we shouldn't have to deal with that. I've also noticed that my battery SOC drop quicker when very cold out. Tesla incorporates Thermal Management into the S (and I believe the Roadster before that). They will no doubt have it in all future models. Ford uses it in their PHEVs, and Focus EV. Heck, even GM was kind enough to incorporate this necessity in the Volt (and I'm sure the Bolt will have it too). Also, I would have to guess the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has it as well.

Its not a big drain on an EVs battery though (and certainly wouldn't exceed 40-50% range loss). A small battery heater (and A/C for summer) is totally feasible. It wouldn't even add that much to the total cost either. And it would allow better long-term battery health.

I don't think you fully understand cold weather range. The reduction in battery capacity as it cools is only one factor in reduced range. Other major factors are increased aerodynamic drag due to the higher density of cold air (more air molecules to push out of the way), increased rolling resistance due to cold tires and gear lube, as well as heater use, which is takes a lot of energy and is a complete loss when it comes to range (save for preheating while plugged-in). Add to that such things as pushing through snow or slush on the roads and it is hardly unexpected that range declines by a lot in winter.

If you think that TMS will alleviate the loss of range in cold winter areas, you are in for a big surprise someday.

 

[mwalsh]

Heck, even GM was kind enough to incorporate this necessity in the Volt (and I'm sure the Bolt will have it too).

We don't have harsh winters, but EV range in our Volt drops by over 30% on hot summer days when the TMS has to run and we run the cabin A/C on the Comfort setting.

 

[electriccarfan]

Yes, but you would only lose a small amount of energy compared to how much you lose just because the outside air happens to be cold. Right off the bat, when I boot-up my Leaf I can't use something like, half the battery capacity. Of course I know the capacity will return once warmer temps come back, but we shouldn't have to deal with that. I've also noticed that my battery SOC drop quicker when very cold out. Tesla incorporates Thermal Management into the S (and I believe the Roadster before that). They will no doubt have it in all future models. Ford uses it in their PHEVs, and Focus EV. Heck, even GM was kind enough to incorporate this necessity in the Volt (and I'm sure the Bolt will have it too). Also, I would have to guess the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has it as well.

Its not a big drain on an EVs battery though (and certainly wouldn't exceed 40-50% range loss). A small battery heater (and A/C for summer) is totally feasible. It wouldn't even add that much to the total cost either. And it would allow better long-term battery health.

I don't think you fully understand cold weather range. The reduction in battery capacity as it cools is only one factor in reduced range. Other major factors are increased aerodynamic drag due to the higher density of cold air (more air molecules to push out of the way), increased rolling resistance due to cold tires and gear lube, as well as heater use, which is takes a lot of energy and is a complete loss when it comes to range (save for preheating while plugged-in). Add to that such things as pushing through snow or slush on the roads and it is hardly unexpected that range declines by a lot in winter.

If you think that TMS will alleviate the loss of range in cold winter areas, you are in for a big surprise someday.

I'll agree that it does take some energy to power the TMS, but its not going to be equivalent to 50% battery capacity. It will not take that much energy to heat or cool the battery compartment. Tesla does a fine job of this and it doesn't impact range that much.

I don't know if you've by chance seen any of Bjørn Nyland's Model S road-trip videos on Youtube?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG1QcV31eoSaX4rE8avQL4A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And yeah, I agree with you that there are energy drawbacks when it comes to winter driving.

When I head out in the morning, I boot-up my Leaf. On 100% charge it usually says at least "80 Miles" on the Miles Remaining display. I drive 1/2 mile down the road and that has dropped to 65-70 Miles Remaining (and its a sunny 20F day with clean roads). I end the day having driven 44 Miles total (and it shows 23 Miles Remaining on the display).

And that was my normal day with speeds not exceeding 40-45 MPH with no expressway. In the summer, all this isn't a problem. But, I need consistent year-round battery range. I want to be able to drive at least 150-200 at expressway speeds with climate control on, just like a Model S.

These cold weather setbacks can all be tolerated now, but in 2.5 years from now (when my lease is up) It won't be tolerated. I don't want to be in the same boat as now when it comes to the next gen.

All Nissan has to do is give us a 40, 60, or 85 kWh battery options & TMS, and we'd be good to go.

I would't even mind the 40 kWh pack. It would be just that little bit farther.

From what I've read here, even the Kia Soul EV can do highway travel efficiently (which seems to differ from my Leaf at highway speeds; being less efficient).

 

[lorenfb]

I sure hope Nissan does get with the picture and incorporate Thermal Management into the 2nd Gen Leaf. I'm tired of losing big time range in these winter temps.

You'd still lose range. Without plugging in, where do you think the energy to run the TMS would come from?

Exactly! Seems most over look this and make a TMS use comparison to the Tesla MS (85 kWh) where 5-10 kWh
of energy loss is hardly noticeable. Given the thermal capacity of the battery when in non-use in either
a very cold or hot environment, the initial energy consumption of TMS can be significant compared to
what's required to maintain a desired temperature range while driving. Obviously too with the Leaf's small
battery, continuous non-use, e.g. cold overnight, TMS is impractical. For those vehicles like the Volt
with an ICE and an on-board charger, TMS is more practical.

No real data have been presented on the extent of the Soul's "TMS", so how effective its' TMS is in temp
extremes is unknown.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...When I head out in the morning, I boot-up my Leaf. On 100% charge it usually says at least "80 Miles" on the Miles Remaining display. I drive 1/2 mile down the road and that has dropped to 65-70 Miles Remaining (and its a sunny 20F day with clean roads). I end the day having driven 44 Miles total (and it shows 23 Miles Remaining on the display).

You seem to be basing your range estimates on the "Guess-o-meter" (GOM), which has no validity whatsoever. None. That may explain why your impression of the loss of range in winter is so extreme and why you blame it, incorrectly, on the lack of TMS for the battery. Until you choose to base your range estimates on more concrete data, such as energy units used per mile or an actual range test, you will continue to be misled as to your actual range under varying temperature conditions.

Expecting TMS to solve the decline in winter range is going to lead to disappointment; there are too many other factors at play. One reason that some of us hope and expect that larger batteries will become the norm for BEVs in the future is that it will help alleviate the loss of range in places with cold winters. If the cold weather range of the car comfortably exceeds one's needs, the decline in range in cold and snowy weather becomes moot. But just adding TMS to a small battery car isn't going to do it.

 

[electriccarfan]

I sure hope Nissan does get with the picture and incorporate Thermal Management into the 2nd Gen Leaf. I'm tired of losing big time range in these winter temps.

You'd still lose range. Without plugging in, where do you think the energy to run the TMS would come from?

Exactly! Seems most over look this and make a TMS use comparison to Tesla MS (85 kWh) where 5-10 kWh
of energy loss is hardly noticeable. Given the thermal capacity of the battery when in non-use in either a very cold or hot environment, the initial energy consumption of TMS can be significant compared to
what's required to maintain a desired temperature range while driving. Obviously too with the Leaf's small
battery, continuous non-use TMS is impractical.

Well, it would sure be nice to have an 85 kWh battery option for the Leaf (or 60). I'm sure there are people that would gladly pay extra for REAL driving range.

It seems like if they just gave us that kind of battery size; we'd be good to go. Tesla has said that since they control the battery aging process with a TMS, they get superior battery life as well as range in all temps.

I believe Franz von Holzhausen said this in the Tesla Model S Jay Leno's garage episode on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoFVO31CbE0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've read that the price per kWh has dropped quite a bit since 2010. I think a larger battery is possible for around the same 30K current price. That's all just my opinion anyhow.

I also wonder why the Leaf doesn't use energy as efficiently as the Model S at highway speeds? My Leaf's Miles per Kilowatt go down significantly when I get on the expressway. It seems the Model S is more efficient with it power, or maybe that's the illusion the big 60 & 80 kWh packs give?

 

[electriccarfan]

...When I head out in the morning, I boot-up my Leaf. On 100% charge it usually says at least "80 Miles" on the Miles Remaining display. I drive 1/2 mile down the road and that has dropped to 65-70 Miles Remaining (and its a sunny 20F day with clean roads). I end the day having driven 44 Miles total (and it shows 23 Miles Remaining on the display).

You seem to be basing your range estimates on the "Guess-o-meter" (GOM), which has no validity whatsoever. None. That may explain why your impression of the loss of range in winter is so extreme and why you blame it, incorrectly, on the lack of TMS for the battery. Until you choose to base your range estimates on more concrete data, such as energy units used per mile or an actual range test, you will continue to be misled as to your actual range under varying temperature conditions.

Expecting TMS to solve the decline in winter range is going to lead to disappointment; there are too many other factors at play. One reason that some of us hope and expect that larger batteries will become the norm for BEVs in the future is that it will help alleviate the loss of range in places with cold winters. If the cold weather range of the car comfortably exceeds one's needs, the decline in range in cold and snowy weather becomes moot. But just adding TMS to a small battery car isn't going to do it.

I see. If Nissan did include TMS in the first place, don't you think all those Leafs in Arizona would've faired better? Or, do you think there would have been the same outcome? It does get quite hot there!

 

[TimLee]

...Tesla has said that since they control the battery aging process with a TMS, they get superior battery life as well as range in all temps.
...

They may have said that, but it does not tell the whole story.

Tesla has a different battery chemistry.
Although it is more dangerous, it may have better capacity degradation characteristics, although TMS is a factor too.
The LEAF and Volt chemistry is safer, but avoiding capacity degradation requires very special chemistry tweaks.

And TMS does help winter range some, but it does not make winter range equal moderate temperature spring and fall range even in the Tesla.

 

[electriccarfan]

...Tesla has said that since they control the battery aging process with a TMSw, they get superior battery life as well as range in all temps.
...

They may have said that, but it does not tell the whole story.

Tesla has a different battery chemistry.
Although it is more dangerous, it may have better capacity degradation characteristics, although TMS is a factor too.
The LEAF and Volt chemistry is safer, but avoiding capacity degradation requires very special chemistry tweaks.

And TMS does help winter range some, but it does not make winter range equal moderate temperature spring and fall range even in the Tesla.

I guess that's understandable.I actually don't think the Miles Remaining gauge on the Leaf is too bad. I know everybody jokingly calls it the Guess-O-Meter, but I've actually found it to be quite accurate.

Last week, I drove around all day (43 miles total with heater on and seat heater/steering wheel heater) and when I was on the way home it showed something like 22-23 miles remaining. If you add those to numbers up, you get just about what most people are getting in winter. So in that regard it really wasn't too bad.

It is winter after all, and the pack is exposed to the elements (it was below 20F all day).

I think a lot of people give it a bad reputation. I do remember that Nissan did a revision on it a couple years ago in 2013. I think they said they tightened it up a little, and or made it less pessimistic.

I don't know.

Do you recommend LeafSpy? Is it worth the trouble of buying the suction cup thing for the windshield?

 

[TimLee]

...
Do you recommend LeafSpy? Is it worth the trouble of buying the suction cup thing for the windshield?

I recommend LEAF Spy Pro.
I don't have suction cup mount, although they are a good idea.
I just leave the Note 3 in the passenger seat.

I agree the DTE isn't as bad as some claim.
I lived with it for 32 months.
The big problem is when you get real low and it goes to --- when you are still three miles from the DCQC exit.
Then LEAF Spy Pro is worth ten times what it costs :!:

 

[electriccarfan]

...
Do you recommend LeafSpy? Is it worth the trouble of buying the suction cup thing for the windshield?

I recommend LEAF Spy Pro.
I don't have suction cup mount, although they are a good idea.
I just leave the Note 3 in the passenger seat.

I agree the DTE isn't as bad as some claim.
I lived with it for 32 months.
The big problem is when you get real low and it goes to --- when you are still three miles from the DCQC exit.
Then LEAF Spy Pro is worth ten times what it costs :!:

Does the OBDII wireless transmitter lead to increased load on the 12V Lead Acid accessory battery? I worry about premature death for that battery from using LeafSpy every single day. I understand that the transmitter doesn't add that much load, but still worry. Also, will using it everyday cause problems with the OBDII port overtime, such as loosening it, blowing it's fuse, or etc? Do I have to remove it every time I power-down the car (to avoid killing the accessory battery)? Or, can I leave it plugged-in 24/7?

 

[minispeed]

Well, it would sure be nice to have an 85 kWh battery option for the Leaf (or 60). I'm sure there are people that would gladly pay extra for REAL driving range.


I also wonder why the Leaf doesn't use energy as efficiently as the Model S at highway speeds? My Leaf's Miles per Kilowatt go down significantly when I get on the expressway. It seems the Model S is more efficient with it power, or maybe that's the illusion the big 60 & 80 kWh packs give?

I think it would be nice to have a 40 option back in the Tesla or even that in the leaf. Anything more is wasteful for most buyers so it shouldn't be the standard.

I'm thinking that Nissan should keep building leaf 1 with an exterior/interior refresh and only an S and SV model at a lower price when they bring out Leaf 2 but I'm pretty sure they won't do it.

As far as highway efficiency it comes down to aerodynamics. And for winter time it matters even more. It's not a linear relationship, the faster you go the more energy you need which is a factor of the CdA and the air temperature/density. Since the Tesla CdA is much smaller than the leaf as it speeds up it it's energy needs are multiplied by a smaller number than in the leaf with it's very high CdA.

According to car and driver the leaf CdA is 25% more than the tesla, the leaf needs 18hp to go 70mph, the tesla 14 and a volt 16 (8% more CdA than the Tesla). To go 100mph the leaf needs 53hp, tesla 42 and volt 45. So as you can see that's a huge power jump for the leaf. These are all at the same temp/density. If it was colder it would be another percentage multiplying those numbers not the same hp added to each one.

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ns-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-7

Thermal management is going to hurt an already bad aero. To have the system you also need air flow and potentially larger grill openings so then unless you add the expense and weight of a system that closes you take an aero hit for that. Even a system that will open can't always have an optimum shape. An engineer has to assume that all systems can run at maximum need in 100F plus heat so I doubt the current opening would allow for a TMS unless it was a heating only TMS and if you're going to do it for heating then it only makes sense to do it for cooling.

As some of us here own cars in areas where they needed a TMS they can honestly say as individual consumers that Nissan should have done it but in the long run if Nissan can build a car that does not need TMS then that takes weight, complexity and price out of the car and for the development of BEV down the road it's better for us when we buy our second or third BEV.

If you're only concerned about heating up the battery you can probably easily add this yourself with heat pads or if you have a garage keep it heated and insulate it to the same standard as your house.

 

[Nubo]

I see. If Nissan did include TMS in the first place, don't you think all those Leafs in Arizona would've faired better? Or, do you think there would have been the same outcome? It does get quite hot there!

Short answer: they may have faired somewhat better, maybe more like LEAFs did in more temperate climates -- which still had unacceptable degradation.

As previously mentioned the pack is small so it cannot sustain a high degree of temperature compensation all day long when parked unplugged under the Phoenix sun. Nissan's design wasn't necessarily a bad idea; there are advantages to NOT having a TMS. However, the battery chemistry has to be up to the task and Nissan's original version was not.