Hello...might become Leaf owner...but need help.

[Tallman85]

Hello All,
I have been thinking of getting an EV for a very long time, but something still holds me back. I live in Malta [Europe], just a 27km long island, overcrowded with people and cars! so EV makes sense considering that it is like driving in one big city all the time. Just to give you an idea, my stats from our BMW 5 series are an average speed of 31km/h over the last 3000km done...so EV makes sense. My daily journey is around 40km per day.

The problem is the weather; I have been reading a lot and watching a lot of YouTube channels. So basically the weather here is on the warm side... I would say from January to April ranging from 10 deg C to 25 deg C, from May to June around 30 deg C, July and Aug 38 - 42 deg C, Sept to October 32 - 35 deg C, and from November to December 15 - 20 deg C .... so it is a tough summer excluding heatwaves and all temps are in the shade. In the sun it will be much more than that in summer. My charging option will be mostly in the sun all year round.

The cheapest EV one can get here is a 2014/15 Nissan Leaf 24kwh [around 5k - 7k Euro with 60k km]. The problem that most of them are on 6 to 9 bars already probably due to the heat?? practically speaking, from experience how much would the battery last any longer considering it is already 10 years old. Is it a risk worth taking? As time goes by will degradation accelerate even more? I don't like to spend more since I still have young children etc...plus a 2018/19 one will set you around Euro 20K.

Any ideas and suggestions are welcome as over the internet you read all types of contradicting info.

Not sure if a plug-in will make more sense to me due to 40km daily. My BMW is heavy on diesel due to traffic.. averaging 9.8l/100km...and with costs going up..not sure it is worth it anymore.

Thank you.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You have an excellent point regarding the Gen 1 Leaf and degradation. Your best bet, Leaf-wise, would be to find a Gen 2 Leaf instead. It may be best, though, to get another brand of EV, with thermal management.

 

[Tallman85]

Thanks for the reply. The price of the gen 1 is very very attractive compared with other EVs. If it lasts fir at least 5 yrs…with at least 60km range that would still be good for me.

 

[WetEV]

Not sure if a plug-in will make more sense to me due to 40km daily. My BMW is heavy on diesel due to traffic.. averaging 9.8l/100km...and with costs going up..not sure it is worth it anymore.

How expensive is electric power on Malta?

About 2 kWh is a liter of fuel... not exactly, but close enough.

Also might follow https://www.speakev.com/

My Nissan Leaf is fairly USA centric. SpeakEV is somewhat UK centric, but has a fair number of EU people.

Even has discussions about Malta.

https://www.speakev.com/search/1019834/?q=malta&t=post&o=relevance

 

[Tallman85]

Hello

2kwh are €0.26 while a litre of petrol is €1.32 and a litre of diesel is €1.22

Thanks for the suggestions.

My only concern would be the tough summer here in Malta . I think UK climate is more favourable to the nissan leaf.

 

[WetEV]

Hello

2kwh are €0.26 while a litre of petrol is €1.32 and a litre of diesel is €1.22

Thanks for the suggestions.

My only concern would be the tough summer here in Malta . I think UK climate is more favourable to the nissan leaf.

Yes, UK is a more favourable climate. Early Nissan Leafs didn't do well in hot climates, but later ones have. @GerryAZ has a 2019 in Phoenix AZ. and has summers hotter than anything in Malta.

How many litres of petrol do you burn per year? Saving about €1 each with an electric car.

 

[Tallman85]

Hello…
My bmw 530d burns around 1300 litres of diesel per year (approx). So yes that would mean saving €1.3k per yr….and from next year fuel price will increase as it will no longer be subsidised by the government.

As regards gen 2 leaf, the problem is that they are x3 or x4 the price of gen 1…here at least. We also get japan and uk imports too on the island.

Its gets pretty hot here in summers too…with the Europe heatwave this yr, we saw 45 degrees centigrade in the shade for 10 days …it was terrible. I imagine that what kills the leafs if not protected somehow.

 

[MikeinPA]

If you have the time, you should drill in on battery aging for the Leaf's available in Malta. In the US, battery chemistry improved some in 2013 and a lot by 2015 for the 24 kwh size. You batteries may be coming from the UK or Japan. There will likely be data out there, but you will have to look for it. I would advise against buying a car with a degraded battery until you have learned what you can and calibrated your comfort level. There is a metric ton load of anxiety around having a vehicle with a part (the battery) that either cannot be serviced (no replacement units) or serviced with great difficulty (get in line behind all the other owners). Due to Nissan's weak support of this component in some areas (mine for example), an otherwise brilliant vehicle can be a real liability.

 

[Tallman85]

Hi

Well i started and most of them are on 7 or 8 bars aged from 2011 / 12. I am currently interested in one with 10 bars from 2015.

Thx

 

[WetEV]

Hello…
My bmw 530d burns around 1300 litres of diesel per year (approx). So yes that would mean saving €1.3k per yr….and from next year fuel price will increase as it will no longer be subsidised by the government.

As regards gen 2 leaf, the problem is that they are x3 or x4 the price of gen 1…here at least. We also get japan and uk imports too on the island.

Its gets pretty hot here in summers too…with the Europe heatwave this yr, we saw 45 degrees centigrade in the shade for 10 days …it was terrible. I imagine that what kills the leafs if not protected somehow.

Compare:

https://weatherspark.com/h/y/2460/2023/Historical-Weather-during-2023-in-Phoenix-Arizona-United-States#Figures-Temperature
https://weatherspark.com/h/y/150260/2023/Historical-Weather-during-2023-in-Malta#Figures-Summary

 

[Tallman85]

Hello…
My bmw 530d burns around 1300 litres of diesel per year (approx). So yes that would mean saving €1.3k per yr….and from next year fuel price will increase as it will no longer be subsidised by the government.

As regards gen 2 leaf, the problem is that they are x3 or x4 the price of gen 1…here at least. We also get japan and uk imports too on the island.

Its gets pretty hot here in summers too…with the Europe heatwave this yr, we saw 45 degrees centigrade in the shade for 10 days …it was terrible. I imagine that what kills the leafs if not protected somehow.

Compare:

https://weatherspark.com/h/y/2460/2023/Historical-Weather-during-2023-in-Phoenix-Arizona-United-States#Figures-Temperature
https://weatherspark.com/h/y/150260/2023/Historical-Weather-during-2023-in-Malta#Figures-Summary

Yes Arizona seems to be a bit hotter

At least we are surrounded by sea water which acts as a cooling radiator. Still I think gen 1 would struggle…but their low price is attractive.

 

[MikeinPA]

Check with any local EV shops. Here is an example: https://www.facebook.com/evservicesmalta/

 

[Tallman85]

Check with any local EV shops. Here is an example: https://www.facebook.com/evservicesmalta/

Yes spoke to the guy…i asked for a replacement battery cost. The cost to replace a 24kwh with 80% soh is equivalent to the cost of the whole car. Thats what i am not comfortable with…

 

[Stanton]

Yes spoke to the guy…i asked for a replacement battery cost. The cost to replace a 24kwh with 80% soh is equivalent to the cost of the whole car. Thats what i am not comfortable with…

Unless you "do it yourself" (like I did), you are not going to find good options to replace/upgrade the battery pack in a Gen1 Leaf. Battery packs (and even modules) have become scarce, and (like you discovered) it's still an expensive undertaking. If a (used) Gen2 Leaf is still too expensive, maybe you need to consider other (non EV) options.

 

[jjeff]

Unfortunately, even a decade after the Leaf came out, replacement batteries still haven't really become cost-effective
People used to ask years ago what the cost of replacing the battery would be when it bacame time and the answer was always, it's real expensive now but should come down as batteries get cheaper and replacements get more common. This never happened, if anything the replacement cost of a pack has risen as the car value depreciated, making it become even less cost effective to replace the battery. When I sold my '12 and '13 the buyers asked how much it would cost to replace the 8 and 11 bar batteries and I basically said neither would be worth it, just use it for what it is. I also said the batteries hardly ever just up and die, they just get progressivly worse over time, so basically electric cars are disposable if the battery dies, kind of a sad thought IMO.

 

[WetEV]

Still I think gen 1 would struggle…but their low price is attractive.

Which is the trade-off.

Gen 1 battery will last a shorter time in total, and is already older.. But a 2015 with 9 bars might last 5 more years, if you get 5 years of life, the car costs €5k, and you save €6.5k (€1.3k per year on fuel), you might be way ahead.

What is the total cost of ownership? (Purchase price - scrap value + taxes + insurance + energy + repairs + maintenance)/ years of ownership

For an EV: price is higher, taxes???, insurance might be higher, energy is far less, repairs average less, maintenance is less

Know what taxes and insurance might be?

Work out how many years a given EV would need to last to break even vs an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine).

The cheapest EV one can get here is a 2014/15 Nissan Leaf 24kwh [around 5k - 7k Euro with 60k km]. The problem that most of them are on 6 to 9 bars already probably due to the heat?? practically speaking, from experience how much would the battery last any longer considering it is already 10 years old. Is it a risk worth taking? As time goes by will degradation accelerate even more? I don't like to spend more since I still have young children etc...plus a 2018/19 one will set you around Euro 20K.

Degradation will accelerate once the car is often getting below Low Battery Warning. Which means that you want about 20km more range than usual driving. I've never owned a car with this low of battery, this is based on battery papers not personal experience.

2015 is a much better choice than 2014, due to better battery life.


Range chart for 8 bar LEAF

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epy3s5bmcbu3gpk/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf?dl=0


km driven doesn't matter much. Battery life is more time/temperature/charge_level.


Looking beyond the battery. An ICE is cheaper to start with, and repairs while frequent are usually cheaper. An EV of any type is less likely to need repairs, but the repairs (not just the battery) are likely more costly. So while the EV probably averages lower repair cost, the risk of an expensive repair is higher. So with limited finances, it would be easier to budget for the ICE. More expensive and more predictable. Risk needs to be considered. How much risk can you afford?


I've probably given more questions and side thoughts than answers. Good luck with your decision.

 

[GerryAZ]

I had a 2015 SL. Its battery was much much better than the 2011 in my hot desert climate. It was down to 8 capacity bars when I traded it after 4-1/2 years and over 80,000 miles (roughly 130,000 km). It was down to about 45 miles (around 70 or 75 km) of range with normal air conditioning use by the time I traded so I could not quite make my round trip commute and had to stop for some charging at public stations every evening. The larger batteries in Gen2 cars (40 kWh or 62 kWh) are better because of fewer charge cycles for the same distance. The 62 kWh battery in my 2019 SL Plus still has all 12 capacity bars after 4 years and 3 months with over 74,000 miles (roughly 120,000 km). A 2015 with 10 capacity bars should meet your needs for a while, but I strongly recommend a Gen2 car if you can find one that you can afford.

 

[Tallman85]

Unfortunately, even a decade after the Leaf came out, replacement batteries still haven't really become cost-effective
People used to ask years ago what the cost of replacing the battery would be when it bacame time and the answer was always, it's real expensive now but should come down as batteries get cheaper and replacements get more common. This never happened, if anything the replacement cost of a pack has risen as the car value depreciated, making it become even less cost effective to replace the battery. When I sold my '12 and '13 the buyers asked how much it would cost to replace the 8 and 11 bar batteries and I basically said neither would be worth it, just use it for what it is. I also said the batteries hardly ever just up and die, they just get progressivly worse over time, so basically electric cars are disposable if the battery dies, kind of a sad thought IMO.

Very true. After all these years the 24kwh is still very expensive and no one mass produced them although they were sold in thousands. Apart from the battery the rest of the car seems well built and made to last.

 

[Tallman85]

Still I think gen 1 would struggle…but their low price is attractive.

Which is the trade-off.

Gen 1 battery will last a shorter time in total, and is already older.. But a 2015 with 9 bars might last 5 more years, if you get 5 years of life, the car costs €5k, and you save €6.5k (€1.3k per year on fuel), you might be way ahead.

What is the total cost of ownership? (Purchase price - scrap value + taxes + insurance + energy + repairs + maintenance)/ years of ownership

For an EV: price is higher, taxes???, insurance might be higher, energy is far less, repairs average less, maintenance is less

Know what taxes and insurance might be?

Work out how many years a given EV would need to last to break even vs an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine).

The cheapest EV one can get here is a 2014/15 Nissan Leaf 24kwh [around 5k - 7k Euro with 60k km]. The problem that most of them are on 6 to 9 bars already probably due to the heat?? practically speaking, from experience how much would the battery last any longer considering it is already 10 years old. Is it a risk worth taking? As time goes by will degradation accelerate even more? I don't like to spend more since I still have young children etc...plus a 2018/19 one will set you around Euro 20K.

Degradation will accelerate once the car is often getting below Low Battery Warning. Which means that you want about 20km more range than usual driving. I've never owned a car with this low of battery, this is based on battery papers not personal experience.

2015 is a much better choice than 2014, due to better battery life.


Range chart for 8 bar LEAF

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epy3s5bmcbu3gpk/LEAFrangeChartVersion7G63.pdf?dl=0


km driven doesn't matter much. Battery life is more time/temperature/charge_level.


Looking beyond the battery. An ICE is cheaper to start with, and repairs while frequent are usually cheaper. An EV of any type is less likely to need repairs, but the repairs (not just the battery) are likely more costly. So while the EV probably averages lower repair cost, the risk of an expensive repair is higher. So with limited finances, it would be easier to budget for the ICE. More expensive and more predictable. Risk needs to be considered. How much risk can you afford?


I've probably given more questions and side thoughts than answers. Good luck with your decision.

All very valid points and thank you

Taxes for example on my bmw i pay €560 per year while an EV will cost €10 per year.

Energy will be for free as i can charge it at work….etc.

 

[Stanton]

After all these years the 24kwh is still very expensive and no one mass produced them although they were sold in thousands. Apart from the battery the rest of the car seems well built and made to last.

Very true: I just passed 100k miles in my Gen1 Leaf...with a Gen2 (40 kWh) pack! If only they could have put 2020 battery technology (and capacity) in the 2011 Leaf...it would have sold millions (instead of thousands).