Help please: 2019 SL+ won't start in garage after charge

[frontrangeleaf]

First of all, we're home, not stranded, have other vehicles. The Leaf is in the garage, nose first. I'll try to keep this short and succinct.

Model: SL+ purchased 7/19. Built 4/19. About 14k miles. No issues before today. Original 12v battery. Only changes are the snow tires.

Problem: Leaf won't start after scheduled overnight charge. Throws all kinds of errors, too many to list, would not shut off either, had to pull 12v to kill it. I don't have LeafSpy, nor a functional voltage meter to check the 12v, as mine recently bought the farm.

Recent events: Bitter cold last 2 nights. Was outside night before last, with 36% charge. Pulled into garage yesterday afternoon (at peak daytime temp, about 18F) for overnight charge with no issues. Plugged in, waited on timer to start at midnight. Multiple power failures here while waiting on charge (firestorm near Denver stopped just north of us, we were lucky), but none overnight while actually charging. Strictly speaking, I don't know if it actually charged or not right now. Garage is not heated. Ice on car did not melt overnight, so cold, but not bitter cold.

12v currently on "intelligent" digital battery charger, taking 8 amps (I set it to max 10 for this size battery). Charger appears satisfied that the 12v is taking the charge (it would throw error codes if not). Hoping it's just the 12v, and we can replace/upgrade if needed.

Questions:
1. If you jump a Leaf, and the 12v is bad, is it still drivable after jump? Our Z4 misfires badly with a low battery, almost undrivable. Every other ICE car I've ever owned was drivable on the alternator as long as you didn't turn it off. Z4 alternator checks out. It's a known BMW thing, apparently. (Design flaw IMNSHO).

2. Does the Leaf BMS account for battery temp cold when charging? I assume it does, as it reduces charge rate when hot. I would like to believe that I can charge in my garage overnight even if cold as long as it's not sub-zero in there (never happens, not even close.) I know that charging when cold is a bad idea, in theory at least, but what options did I have? I dropped into single digits here overnight, so I pulled it in to top it off. Should have finished near 80%.

3. If the Leaf starts throwing up error codes, is the only recourse to pull the 12v to reset? Seems primitive.

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Update: 12v charger has already ramped down from bulk charge rate in under an hour. Now pushing 2 amps.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Hopefully this is just a weak 12 volt battery. Is the Leaf regularly plugged in for long periods before and/or after charging ends? If so, that's the likely cause. The power outages could also be playing hell with the car. When the 12 volt battery is fully charged, if you have LeafSpy Pro then that is the preferred way to clear error codes.

As for the car "running" with a weak 12 volt battery, it depends on how weak it is. Yours likely will, but a truly dead 12 volt battery will act as a resistor, and prevent the car from staying On.

 

[nlspace]

Your 12V starter battery has failed because it is weak and worn out, likely built in late 2018, it is at least 3 years old and that seems to be it's life time in a laef.

i wouldn't think it wise to drive with a worn out 12V, it could fail at anytime; it might be recharged and used for a few more weeks, but is it worth the risk? If it fails during driving or charging it can cause collateral damage to expensive electronics, e.g. pack contactors, OBC, etc.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Thanks for the prompt replies, Leftie, NLspace.

No, the car is never left plugged in - I'm aware that might be an issue, although I thought it was largely addressed in Gen II. You've seen my posts re how we use it, I'm sure. We don't drive any of our cars much in the pandemic.

Assuming that it's the 12v, I'll pick up an AGM for it, and see what happens.

Our alternate car has a 6.5 year old battery in it, so I'm concerned I might be inviting Murphy to the party. Not looking to replace both in the same month.

I do think it odd that I could pull the car into the garage just fine. Odd timing that way. We'll see after full charge if it comes up. Otherwise we'll have the challenge of getting it out of the garage while pulled in nose first. It's also up a hill. Let's hope that's not the next challenge.

Update:
12v charge complete. Car started with no issues. I haven't tried to drive it yet. It did NOT charge overnight. Still at 36%.

Will go pick up a replacement 12v, charge it full before installing it and then schedule another charge session for the traction battery tonight.

 

[knightmb]

Our alternate car has a 6.5 year old battery in it, so I'm concerned I might be inviting Murphy to the party. Not looking to replace both in the same month.

Lead Acid and ICE vehicles go good together because the alternator in the ICE will always blast the Lead Acid to full charge at every start (+14V), but the Leaf is a lot more passive on this, it is usually running +13V, which is fine when running the lights and radio, but the poor Lead Acid just slowly dies over that time since it's not sitting at +14V to prevent slow capacity loss. Couple that with low outside temperatures that lower the battery voltage *even* more and it's why the cheap Lead Acid batteries don't last long in a Leaf, especially in a cold weather climate area. If it's a lease, you can cheap out but if you want to keep it for years and drive it till the wheels fall out, go for a good AGM or even Lithium if you don't mind wiring it up yourself.

Update:
12v charge complete. Car started with no issues. I haven't tried to drive it yet. It did NOT charge overnight. Still at 36%.

Will go pick up a replacement 12v, charge it full before installing it and then schedule another charge session for the traction battery tonight.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Thanks Knight. Bought a DieHard AGM 51R. Seemed like a reasonable compromise. 41Ah.

Unfortunately, manufactured 10/20. Not my ideal, but the only one I could find.

Put it on the charger before installation - it took some charge but not too much. Hopefully still in good shape.

Pleasantly surprised that I didn't lose my radio presets or other settings. Odometer reset, that's about it.

Queued up another charging session tonight. Should be fine.

Thanks again, guys.

 

[GerryAZ]

The 12V battery failed suddenly in my 2019 SL Plus after 27 months so you should be fine with a new AGM battery. Disconnecting and replacing the OEM battery should have cleared most of the error codes. I was also surprised that I did not lose the radio presets when I replaced the battery in the 2019, but I did lose some of the settings in the EV system menus. I had the OEM battery in the 2011 completely discharged when I inadvertently left the OBDII adapter plugged in and Leaf Spy running on an Android device while the car was parked for 5 days. I jump started the LEAF from my office vehicle and drove home without incident. I also drove all three LEAF's to the battery store to buy new batteries when the OEM batteries failed (required jump start in each case) so my experience is that the DC-DC converter will keep the car running whether the 12V battery has failed or is just deeply discharged (better than alternators on gas engine cars).

 

[knightmb]

Pleasantly surprised that I didn't lose my radio presets or other settings. Odometer reset, that's about it.

Yeah, it's weird what things are saved. One other thing, the "automatic one-touch roll-up" will be turned off. To turn it back on, roll the window all the way down, then hold the up switch for the window until it reaches the top and keep holding for a few seconds until it "clicks". That should turn that feature back on.

 

[SageBrush]

Thanks Knight. Bought a DieHard AGM 51R. Seemed like a reasonable compromise. 41Ah.

If it is a so called 'deep discharge' type battery you are in good shape. The batteries marketed as 'starting batteries' (high CCA) will not last anywhere near as long.

 

[Stanton]

Lead Acid and ICE vehicles go good together because the alternator in the ICE will always blast the Lead Acid to full charge at every start (+14V), but the Leaf is a lot more passive on this, it is usually running +13V, which is fine when running the lights and radio, but the poor Lead Acid just slowly dies over that time since it's not sitting at +14V to prevent slow capacity loss.

This is why Lithium (LiFePO4) 12v batteries are such a good match for the Leaf (and maybe a lot of EVs): they typically "sit" ~13.2v.
There are plenty of threads on Lithium 12v battery replacements (including mine); my 12v LiFePO4 battery is going on 9 years (and I never had a 12v battery last longer than 4 years in Texas).

 

[knightmb]

This is why Lithium (LiFePO4) 12v batteries are such a good match for the Leaf (and maybe a lot of EVs): they typically "sit" ~13.2v.
There are plenty of threads on Lithium 12v battery replacements (including mine); my 12v LiFePO4 battery is going on 9 years (and I never had a 12v battery last longer than 4 years in Texas).

+1 to that, I got mine in 2015 and it's going on +7 years now even with a transplant from my 2013 to 2020 Leaf, still going strong.

 

[SageBrush]

This is why Lithium (LiFePO4) 12v batteries are such a good match for the Leaf (and maybe a lot of EVs): they typically "sit" ~13.2v.
There are plenty of threads on Lithium 12v battery replacements (including mine); my 12v LiFePO4 battery is going on 9 years (and I never had a 12v battery last longer than 4 years in Texas).

+1 to that, I got mine in 2015 and it's going on +7 years now even with a transplant from my 2013 to 2020 Leaf, still going strong.

The two of you push LFP when 12v comes up but others should realize that LFP is not suitable for cold climates without thermal control

 

[jjeff]

This is why Lithium (LiFePO4) 12v batteries are such a good match for the Leaf (and maybe a lot of EVs): they typically "sit" ~13.2v.
There are plenty of threads on Lithium 12v battery replacements (including mine); my 12v LiFePO4 battery is going on 9 years (and I never had a 12v battery last longer than 4 years in Texas).

+1 to that, I got mine in 2015 and it's going on +7 years now even with a transplant from my 2013 to 2020 Leaf, still going strong.

The two of you push LFP when 12v comes up but others should realize that LFP is not suitable for cold climates without thermal control

Agree and other than the cost, it's why I believe Nissan doesn't just install a 12v Lithium from the factory. My 51R Optima AGM is over 5 years old and I haven't had any issues with it. Unfortunately an AGM in 51R size is kind of hard to currently find.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Thanks Knight. Bought a DieHard AGM 51R. Seemed like a reasonable compromise. 41Ah.

If it is a so called 'deep discharge' type battery you are in good shape. The batteries marketed as 'starting batteries' (high CCA) will not last anywhere near as long.

I'm familiar. Have a true deep discharge Trojan Signature series on my camper.

Unclear this is a "deep discharge" - not marketed as a marine/RV style, but that might be due to the modest size. I did specifically look for reserve minutes and amp hours, rather than high CCA. I think it will be fine.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Pleasantly surprised that I didn't lose my radio presets or other settings. Odometer reset, that's about it.

Yeah, it's weird what things are saved. One other thing, the "automatic one-touch roll-up" will be turned off. To turn it back on, roll the window all the way down, then hold the up switch for the window until it reaches the top and keep holding for a few seconds until it "clicks". That should turn that feature back on.

Thanks. That worked. Might not have thought of that.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

This is why Lithium (LiFePO4) 12v batteries are such a good match for the Leaf (and maybe a lot of EVs): they typically "sit" ~13.2v.
There are plenty of threads on Lithium 12v battery replacements (including mine); my 12v LiFePO4 battery is going on 9 years (and I never had a 12v battery last longer than 4 years in Texas).

+1 to that, I got mine in 2015 and it's going on +7 years now even with a transplant from my 2013 to 2020 Leaf, still going strong.

The two of you push LFP when 12v comes up but others should realize that LFP is not suitable for cold climates without thermal control

I haven't gone to LFP on my camper for this reason. Denver is relatively mild compared to the mountains west of us, but still plenty cold enough to cause trouble. The Leaf lives mostly outside, as the other 2 cars have priority for garage space.

I generally do pretty well with lead acid, all in all. My record is 7+ years in Denver, a Marathon in my GTI. The Audi still has the original battery at 6.5 years, bought new (AGM comes standard). Most of my batteries seem to go 4-5 years comfortably. If I get to 5, I'm feeling pretty good.

This is the first AGM I've purchased as a replacement. The camper has a true deep cycle Trojan group 31. It's also 6 years old now, and likely needs replacing, but that's a different animal again, heavy-weight plates and antimony doped. It's managed by the solar panel up top - just need to add water a few times a year.

 

[knightmb]

The two of you push LFP when 12v comes up but others should realize that LFP is not suitable for cold climates without thermal control

I agree, but we have to push back against the idea that once it dips below 32F, the battery will fail or catch fire. While neither of us live in a climate where it's -40F/C for weeks, we do get the occasional cold week where temperatures are below 32F for a long time and neither of us had failures or fires, etc. The LFP in a small size that we use (20 AH) has enough capacity to start the Leaf hundreds of times before needing to recharge. Even if it won't charge quickly under 32F, that's still enough capacity to power up the Leaf over and over for months until it finally does get warm.
I would be curious about the experience for someone living in Canada or Alaska using a LFP and how reliable it was, but that shouldn't mean that someone turn down the technology because it might get below freezing for few days or weeks out of the year.

 

[Stanton]

I would be curious about the experience for someone living in Canada or Alaska using a LFP and how reliable it was, but that shouldn't mean that someone turn down the technology because it might get below freezing for few days or weeks out of the year.

+1 on that!

 

[LeftieBiker]

Unclear this is a "deep discharge" - not marketed as a marine/RV style, but that might be due to the modest size.

I think that Chinese brand marketing strategies have percolated into American companies. In this case that means 'put some fiberglass strands into a starting battery and then label it "AGM." It will likely still be better than a starting battery with no 'glass' but not as good as a battery designed from the beginning to be AGM.

but we have to push back against the idea that once it dips below 32F, the battery will fail or catch fire. While neither of us live in a climate where it's -40F/C for weeks, we do get the occasional cold week where temperatures are below 32F for a long time and neither of us had failures or fires, etc. The LFP in a small size that we use (20 AH) has enough capacity to start the Leaf hundreds of times before needing to recharge. Even if it won't charge quickly under 32F, that's still enough capacity to power up the Leaf over and over for months until it finally does get warm.

Valid point, but who has made the above claim? I've said that it isn't safe to charge a lithium battery when the battery temp itself falls below freezing, and that's true. It isn't the air temp that matters, though - it's the battery temp. I have to say that while what you write above is correct, relying on the vagaries of the weather to be able to charge your car's battery (presumably with the charging system disabled or modified to allow that) is not an appealing prospect. You really should note to people that AGM is best overall in colder climates. I'll in turn mention that LFP batteries are a good choice for long term use in mild climates.

One slip. I think that parts of Canada where it is almost always above 0C in Winter are getting less rare, but are still just that - rare.

 

[alozzy]

I wouldn't hesitate to install a 12V LiFePO4 battery in my LEAF, but I live in Vancouver where we seldom get sustained temps below -5C (23F). I also keep my LEAF in our garage overnight.

However, if I lived pretty much anywhere east of Vancouver I wouldn't install LFP as the operating temperature of most LFP batteries (not the low temp charging cutoff, which is usually 0C or 32D) is -20C (-4F). Most Canadian cities, other than Vancouver, regularly get temperatures below -20C...