Hi and GO LEAF (and other EV cars).

[HoustonFlier]

Hello all,

Been following the Leaf since first announced, signed up and been on Leaf mailing list since day 1.
Saw my first Leaf in Tokyo in 2009, long before they hit the US streets.

IMHO, I think Hybrids are a travesty to drivers and the environment. The fuel mileage is only a tiny big better then the most efficient gas cars, but the old Geo Metro / Suzuki Swift (1 Liter, 61 CID 3 cylinder) puts all Hybrids to shame with its 55~58 MPG. Hybrids also cost significantly more.

Chevy Volt is closer to what I think Hybrid-like car should be, good enough to be eco friendly.

I can use and very much inclined to go EV, but the cost savings in energy do not balance out the extra cost of car. I keep watching the trend, tho.

So, this forum as close to an Official Nissan place to discuss as you can find?

 

[Stoaty]

IMHO, I think Hybrids are a travesty to drivers and the environment.

I wouldn't lump the gen 3 Prius in with the others. My brother has over 50 MPG lifetime average over 20,000 miles on his.

 

[TomT]

There is much more to environmental considerations that simply MPG... To a certain extent I agree with the OP that the value of hybrids has been over-hyped in that regard...

IMHO, I think Hybrids are a travesty to drivers and the environment.

I wouldn't lump the gen 3 Prius in with the others. My brother has over 50 MPG lifetime average over 20,000 miles on his.

 

[davewill]

A lot of hybrids fit your description, but the Prius has always been a cut above. It allows one to have a car big enough to transport a family with mileage similar to your two-door Geo Metro. It also has MUCH cleaner emissions than that Metro (or even a modern equivalent, if such a thing was made) ever could.

 

[DaveEV]

Can't beat the Prius (any of the 3 models) for efficiency use of gasoline at a great price. Now the plug-in I think we all can agree needs about twice the battery or a reduction in price to really be competitive.

 

[gbshaun]

the cost savings in energy do not balance out the extra cost of car.

For most people, a Leaf is not the cheapest form of transportation. That's probably a 5-year old Honda fit or something similar.
But 95% of vehicles sold are not the cheapest in their class, people gladly pay extra for different features, be it a 130+mph top speed, military-like styling (Hummer), or a 1-touch convertible top.
For many of us, the features we appreciate (eg remarkable drive quality, off-the-line performance, cleanliness etc) are only found in an EV, and we're happy to pay a little extra for that.

 

[Volusiano]

the cost savings in energy do not balance out the extra cost of car.

If you consider the federal $7500 tax credit savings (and for CA residents the additional $5K or $2.5K rebate on top), then I think it'll come close to balancing out up front already. I wouldn't have bought the Leaf without the $7500 credit incentive. That's why it's there...

Now, combined with the cost savings in energy, then I think it'll balance out or even exceed the ICE cost of ownership in the end. I already know I easily save a couple of hundred bucks of gas a month already with my Leaf. That's roughly $2.5K a year or $10K in 4 years. This is not counting maintenance savings and registration cost savings every year.

Now if you buy a Tesla, that's a different thing. But the Leaf for sure is a viable option cost-wise with the tax credit.

 

[HoustonFlier]

Thanks for your comments all!

Yes, Prius has raised the bar some, but not yet to what I consider acceptable.

Again, as the Metro proved and future VolksWagon XL1 with 260 mpg-US will show, better efficiency is very possible. Naturally any radial technology will cost more, as the XL1 might cost about $75,000 for this Diesel hybrid.

The big problem with hybrids is being a complete gas car with electric motor tossed in. More weight = more energy to move.

the cost savings in energy do not balance out the extra cost of car.

For most people, a Leaf is not the cheapest form of transportation. That's probably a 5-year old Honda fit or something similar.
But 95% of vehicles sold are not the cheapest in their class, people gladly pay extra for different features, be it a 130+mph top speed, military-like styling (Hummer), or a 1-touch convertible top.
For many of us, the features we appreciate (eg remarkable drive quality, off-the-line performance, cleanliness etc) are only found in an EV, and we're happy to pay a little extra for that.

I am making a comparison between same model year, same size (mid-size) car with best fuel mileage.
The cost of energy usage advantage for Lead does not match the price difference.
Of course you do have other factors, but overall still in gas favor.

Of course one can argue the quiet, smoother ride, coolness, Leaf wins.

In environmental concerns, that is a bit of toss up. It takes a lot more energy and materials to make batteries (currently), oil and grease is still used, and then you have to dispose of used batteries.


Electric still has excellent potential, but slow to get there.
Anyone have rental Leaf's?

 

[HoustonFlier]

the cost savings in energy do not balance out the extra cost of car.

If you consider the federal $7500 tax credit savings (and for CA residents the additional $5K or $2.5K rebate on top), then I think it'll come close to balancing out up front already. I wouldn't have bought the Leaf without the $7500 credit incentive. That's why it's there...

Now, combined with the cost savings in energy, then I think it'll balance out or even exceed the ICE cost of ownership in the end. I already know I easily save a couple of hundred bucks of gas a month already with my Leaf. That's roughly $2.5K a year or $10K in 4 years. This is not counting maintenance savings and registration cost savings every year.

I am curious, is there a calculator on comparing G vs E somewhere?

Miles / time,
Energy use of EV
$ of gas
$ of electric

Plot of graph to see the ROI as $gas goes up, and how many miles driven can make EV desirable?

I live in Houston, very hot, 11 mile daily commute one way, overall <10,000 mi/year.

 

[davewill]

Thanks for your comments all!

Yes, Prius has raised the bar some, but not yet to what I consider acceptable.

Again, as the Metro proved and future VolksWagon XL1 with 260 mpg-US will show, better efficiency is very possible. Naturally any radial technology will cost more, as the XL1 might cost about $75,000 for this Diesel hybrid. ...

Nice try palming that card. You're touting a $75,000 concept car that barely seats two people, and will never go to market to show why current production cars that seat 5 and have cargo space are inadequate.

 

[Herm]

IMHO, I think Hybrids are a travesty to drivers and the environment.

The Prius will pay for itself very quickly, plus they are bulletproof 10+ years ... but stay away from Honda hybrids, there have been issues with those batteries.

Check out Edmunds total cost of ownership and compare your favorite econobox to a Prius.

http://www.edmunds.com/tco.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[HoustonFlier]

IMHO, I think Hybrids are a travesty to drivers and the environment.

The Prius will pay for itself very quickly, plus they are bulletproof 10+ years ...

Which Prius?

 

[Herm]

The hatchback, the C, the PIP and the V are too new to know if they will be reliable.