Home on the Range. Leaf Fanboys attack.

[SteveInSeattle]

The Leaf is not, and was never intended for all consumers. Period. It will appeal to many, but how many is unknowable at this stage. A lot of that will depend on reputation for dependability. It is the perfect car for me-- I am not defensive if you say it isn't for you.

Clearly if range technology improves the target market will widen. Adding more batteries at the current weight and cost makes no sense.

People are emotional about their decisions-- psychology has identified this for decades. Cognitive Dissonance theory predicts that if I chose the Leaf I will distort my perception and want to think more highly of it after that decision. An example is if I rate the leaf about 51/49 over the Focus EV-- but then buy the Leaf-- my rating is likely to go much higher after I make that choice and it will now be 80/20, for example.

On the other hand, we all know what forum behavior is like-- so we should take the highly emotional posts in stride.

And my final thought is this: I met a guy at the Seattle meet-up a few months ago who was planning an 85 mile R/T daily. If I had an 85 mile commute every day I am pretty certain I would NOT consider a Leaf. Even if it can handle that now, and that is not clear, with expected battery degredation he will soon reach a point where range is no longer adequate. And, if it wasn't for all of the push and pull on this issue I am not sure that would be obvious.

 

[EVDRIVER]

There is not much reason to complain, those that do research before buying a car like this should know the range issues and can make a choice not to buy but the info can't come from the uninformed dealers so there is a disconnect. Nissan made some mistakes on this car for sure even after being warned far in advance from experienced EV folks, just going with a 6.6kw charger would solve most Bay Area issues once charge docks are in place and make the car VASTLY more useful. I also think the car could still shed some decent weight without a high cost premium. I will also say that after 1K miles and much use with the NAV system it is a piece of junk interface that is far behind in usability and performance VS six year old systems, total disappointment, non-intuitive, redundant interface which should have been the best on the market. Carwings is pointless and broken, and there are several other issues. Fanboy, I just try and call it like it is But I do get decent range as a previous EV driver and the LEAF is better than anything else out there for the money and at it is a great car for many folks and a exceptional starting point in the market that is untouched at the moment.

 

[GeekEV]

+1 to pretty much everything everyone else is saying. I really don't think anyone means to attack anyone for wanting more range (heck, I do too!), but rather to rebuff anyone who COMPLAINS about not having more range. If it's an issue for you, don't buy the car. If you already bought the car, you should have done your homework better. Is the LEAF the be-all-end-all of EVs? No. But it's a great introduction for the masses and makes an awesome city car.

P.S. Yes, I *am* a fanboy - I love this car!

 

[friendnumber1]

As one who has suffered from Knee-jerk reactions in the last week, I have to say I agree and disagree with your post. I agree that the bunker mentality of EV defenders can get kind of tiresome, but I disagree that the Leaf's range has to be increased.

On the former, whenever you combine BabyBoom entitlement with First-adopter omniscience, and sprinkle in the openness to crackkpots that is inherent with internet bulletin boards, you are opening yourself up to this sort of thing. It is best to just stay calm and respond with a balanced rebuttal and not get baited into saying something stupid. Sometimes you have to go back and edit your posts to soften your tone. Othertimes it is best to just let stupid replies stand for others to decide for themselves, or post their own rebuttals on your behalf.

I do find it funny that when EPA first came up with the 73 mile range, many folks claimed it was a conspiracy against EVs, and now many of these same posters cite these numbers as gospel.

On the latter, I think edatoakrun said it best:

The primary limiting factor in BEV range is currently the lack of recharging infrastructure, not battery capacity.

 

[charlie1300]

I don't see a real problem. I read through most of the thread alluded to, and I see pretty much the usual range of responses on any other thread - from "you're an idiot/troll/unworthy to post here", to " I feel your pain, here are a few ideas that could help you". Hey, Welcome to the Internet! If we all responded in the same way, it would be pretty boring. And what passes for "Flaming" in this forum is pretty mild mannered. Check out some political blogs if you'd like to hear what your mother is allegedly up to. :shock:
And we are mostly all Leaf Fanboys at heart, or we wouldn't be here. So I don't consider that an insult.

As far as the range issue, When Nissan first said 100 miles, I though, take 20% off and that might what I actually get. So I'm not disappointed. 80 miles or even less works great for me, and probably a large number of others. Anyone who bought a leaf and needed to get 90-100 mile range regularly was not thinking critically. If the leaf is successful satisfying the customers who need 80 miles or less, then that will pave the way for other trade-offs of range and weight - a smaller car that can go 150, a pickup that can go 40, etc.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The word "troll" should not be used on this site as directed to any member, if there are any member issues on the site a moderator can address them. Please PM me if there are any such issues.

 

[palmermd]

Totally
Rabidly
Obsessed
Leaf
Learner

That roughly translates to fanboy.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Stop attacking people who complain about the range of the car. Acknowledge what Tesla accepts as fact. Your battery should take you more than 80 miles at freeway speeds. Nissan should address this in v.2, just like the silly 50% L2 charging rate, and the bogus Nav updating process. The car will need to be better. It can be better. And better is what will allow the EV revolution to occur, not the group think displayed here.

Tesla also accepts as "Fact" that it currently sells no electric car for less than about $100,000 (Ok, $95,000 in CA) with incentives. Buy Tesla

The LEAF is about $20,000 with incentives in CA.

The Tesla Roadster is about 5 times the cost of the LEAF. One can also argue that the Tesla Roadster will never sell and it's useless because it doesn't have seating for four, when many but not all car buyers need a car with four seats. But that's not the point. One specfic vehicle will never be all things to all people - otherwise we wouldn't have so many models and configurations of cars to choose from! The Tesla Roadster is great for people who have $100k to spend on a two seater electric rocket that can go from 0-60 in 3.7 seconds and has a range of 245 miles - though hard accelerations will reduce the range. Actual range in daily use is more like 140 - 200 miles. One example

Tesla is coming out with the model S. It will be less expensive, but one of the things I like most about it are the Range Options on the base vehicle. That gives people the opportunity to make their own range / cost tradeoffs.

These estimated prices, since the model S isn't available for sale yet, but should be in 2012:
160 mile range: $44,900 base price (with Fed, CA incentives)
230 mile range: $54,900 (Option for an additional 70 miles adds $10,000 to the base price.)
300 mile range: $64,900 (Option for an additional 140 miles adds $20,000 to the base price.)

Compared to the LEAF:
100 mile range: $20,000 base price (with Fed, CA incentives)
(Please Nissan, add one or two range options to the LEAF V2!, say 160 and 230 mile options.)

So actually, adding the LEAF to Tesla's future Model S range options gives us some reasonable choices in rnage versus price and vividly illustrates the current trade off of range versus price.

For some people the current LEAF range is more than they need for what they intend to use the vehicle for, while others are willing to pay more for a greater range. Some people have round trip commutes under 10 miles (mine is currently 2 miles on surface streets), others have commutes that are 60 miles or more round trip and want to do it at 65 or 75 mph (I've had a 55 mile round trip commute that I did in my EV1 at 65mph).

Trips around the bay - San Jose to San Francisco, San Jose to Monterey, etc. exceed the current range of the LEAF at 65 mph until we have convenient public charging at our destinations and some key fast charge locations. They're coming in the next 1-3 years. Right now, charging infrastructure, besides 120V, is much sparser than we'd like. This is changing in a big way within 3 years!

Some trips you do solo are ok with taking more time to arrange charging, whereas when you have the family or guests in the car it's not usually a good time to go out of the way for charging. That's when you take, borrow or rent the gas or hybrid car for that trip. In my case, that's the Prius we already own to nicely complement the LEAF. Arranging charging with the LEAF will be much easier than prior EVs I've owned since the LEAF has the navigation system with your projected range and the charging stations in the map! As an EV Driver of over 10 years and 80,000 miles, that's just totally cool, awesome, convenient, something my spouse will use and my kids when they get their licenses and drive the LEAF. And there's the fast charge option. Awesome!

More on the Tesla Model S and it's range options:

When will features, options, and pricing be announced?
Options and pricing for Model S are in development and will be announced when finalized. Tesla will invite reservation holders to configure their Model S approximately three months before their car is produced.

What are the prices of the different battery pack options?
Three battery options are offered: 160-, 230-, or 300-mile range. Model S comes standard with the 160-mile range battery at the quoted $49,900 base price (after the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit). The 230-mile and 300-mile range batteries are optional upgrades. The 230-mile range option is priced at about $10,000 more than the base and the 300-mile option at about $20,000 more than the base.

https://www.teslamotors.com/models/faq

 

[cdaveb]

I live in the Bay Area and I've been driving electric for 11 years. Range has never been an issue for me because I don't need to drive more than 80 miles round trip except on extremely rare occasions, and if I do we use my husband's car.

If you're a driver that needs a longer range, the economics aren't there yet for an electric vehicle designed for your purposes unless you want to buy an extremely high end vehicle like the Tesla. Battery cost is just too high at this time. However I do believe the vast majority of the longer range market can be served very well by plugin hybrids, which hopefully will be available in much larger numbers over the next few years (and which we'll probably replace my husband's car with soon). There are also plenty of people for whom the range of the Leaf is more than sufficient, especially in 2 car households. People just need to be realistic about their driving requirements when purchasing a car.

Hopefully as larger amounts of pure electric and plugin hybrids are being produced we can improve significantly on battery economics but it's not going to happen overnight (and hopefully it won't get delayed for another 10 years due to politics again). Also as the volume of new electric drivers increases the public charging options will continue to improve.

I'm happy to see Nissan actually really jumping into the market so fully (even if I'm frustrated by some of their issues with the rollout) unlike most companies who are barely getting their feet wet.

 

[AndyH]

Whatever the response, a little less of "the Kool Aid" would be a good thing around here.

Yum - Kool-Aid!

Not everyone suggesting that there is no problem is a fanboy...girl...person. They just might know something you don't.

Anyone that isn't happy with the Leaf is welcome to skip that option and find something that makes them happy. Unfortunately, most people that so easily find fault are unlikely to be happy with any option. And that's beyond sad.

Good luck with that.

 

[BlueSL]

Unfortunately, most people that so easily find fault are unlikely to be happy with any option. And that's beyond sad.

Good luck with that.

This is an attack on the author, not the argument, and proves half of the premise of my OP.

This is the second time on this board that I have suggested that the EV community was willing to accept too little. The first time related to PG&E's bizarre rate policies which will need to be altered if early adoption is going to to migrate into mass adoption. There, too, people who had managed to shoehorn their electricity buying habits into the very narrow options offered by PG&E saw nothing wrong with a system that will not work for most people because gas will be cheaper for them and have no up front costs. Second meters for everyone? No practical way for renters and multi-unit dwellers to take advantage? Bad ideas. They need to be re-examined.

If you think the car is good enough, that's ok. Just recognize how far to the left you fall on the "willingness to go EV" continuum. The Smyrna plant won't come on line until everyone who is similarly inclined already has a Leaf. That's when the battle begins. And 80 miles or less at freeway speeds is not going to cut it.

 

[edatoakrun]

BlueSL:

"...This is the second time on this board that I have suggested that the EV community was willing to accept too little. The first time related to PG&E's bizarre rate policies which will need to be altered if early adoption is going to to migrate into mass adoption. There, too, people who had managed to shoehorn their electricity buying habits into the very narrow options offered by PG&E saw nothing wrong with a system that will not work for most people because gas will be cheaper for them and have no up front costs. Second meters for everyone? No practical way for renters and multi-unit dwellers to take advantage? Bad ideas. They need to be re-examined.

... 80 miles or less at freeway speeds is not going to cut it."

Utility rate structures nationwide do a very poor job of producing "fair" bills for customers and improving grid efficiency. The reality of peak costs to the utility is rarely accurately reflected in the retail customer's bills. This causes certain current electricity purchases to be subsidized, and others to be over-charged. Tier charges were the only tool utilities had to discourage discretionary and subsidized peak demand, mostly air conditioning use , before TOU meters were installed.

PG&E actually leads most other utilities in BEV grid integration, by offering several TOU options to BEV owners. They do not work for some customers, apparently a group you belong to.

Are you sure you cannot reduce your electricity use to the lower tiers, so that the problem you appear to have with the second meter option is irrelevant?

Even at an average kWh cost of 20-30 cents, electricity is cheaper than gas.

Many have commented that the LEAF is impractical for commuters with more than 60-80 mile (depending on speed/climate) commutes. Again, you appear to be in the minority who's needs exceed this limit, without recharging.

No vehicle will be perfect for every driver. It is the buyer's responsibility to choose a car to meet their needs. In the future, there will undoubtedly be other BEV's that may be more suitable for you. Meanwhile, I think the LEAF will likely match the needs of more buyers than Nissan has plant capacity, for several years.

 

[jcodeglia]

Then don't buy one, dude.

 

[Nubo]

...
If you think the car is good enough, that's ok. Just recognize how far to the left you fall on the "willingness to go EV" continuum. The Smyrna plant won't come on line until everyone who is similarly inclined already has a Leaf. That's when the battle begins. And 80 miles or less at freeway speeds is not going to cut it.

That equation is more complex and largely depends on the price of gasoline. There are also advantage to electric that go beyond economy, range, and ecology.

A frustration for EV supporters is that as the technology improves, those with an axe to grind continue to raise the bar of expectations.
"When it's a 'real' car that can go more than 50 miles, let me know"
out comes EV1, etc..
"When it can go over a hundred miles and a hundred miles per hour, let me know"
out comes Tesla
"When I can get to Las Vegas in 12 hours, let me know"
or,
"What happens if 10 million electric cars are plugged in at the same time!?"
"Hey, the electricity has to come from somewhere, ever think of that?"

And on it goes.

Nobody's saying this generation of EVs doesn't leave enormous room for improvement.

Personally I think the price/performance is already attractive.

At $5.00/gal it's downright beautiful.
At $10/gal....

If events transpire to actually cause gasoline shortages, the range of a gasoline car takes a drastic hit, eh? Is there some reason that can't happen now as it did in the 1970's? Eventually it will happen.

I do think the current state of the art will garner enough buyers to start driving the technology faster, and improvements will come at a faster pace. Eventually even the mythical drive to Las Vegas will no longer be an anti-EV argument. By the time that happens, petrol cars will be viewed as hopelessly expensive, inconvenient, and performance-challenged.

 

[AndyH]

Unfortunately, most people that so easily find fault are unlikely to be happy with any option. And that's beyond sad.

Good luck with that.

This is an attack on the author, not the argument, and proves half of the premise of my OP.

No, actually, it's not. It's a simple truth that it's difficult for the human mind to see good when we're wearing our brown-colored glasses. You're welcome to accept or deny the observation, but you don't have to right to try to tell me what I intended.

This is the second time on this board that I have suggested that the EV community was willing to accept too little. ... If you think the car is good enough, that's ok. Just recognize how far to the left you fall on the "willingness to go EV" continuum.

Interesting point of view, Blue. How "far to the left"? Really? I'm truly sorry that some here find other's satisfaction so difficult to accept.

Newsflash - we get to decide what works for us just as you get to decide what works for you.

Those that are happy with the capabilities of TODAY'S Gen1 Leaf are just as free to express their views of their needs and expectations as those that do not share those view. And neither is incorrect as they are both proper and correct expressions of their needs, goals, desires, etc.

If the Leaf doesn't work for you then don't buy one. If you care to offer suggestions for a Gen2 Leaf, feel free to get that to NNA.

But your right to express your views probably should stop short of taking it out on any of the members of this forum as its clear that none of 'us' are employees of Nissan.

Have a great weekend. I hope you find a car you're happy with!

Andy

 

[BlueSL]

Newsflash - we get to decide what works for us . . .

Right. You are in the percent of one percent who will buy a car you can hardly test drive to pursue an ideal for which you are prepared to make significant compromises.

I have never been talking about your choice, and certainly not about my own. My order is awaiting Nissan's delivery. I am talking about mass adoption -- the world well beyond the 20,000 reservations -- and have been from the OP. I'm sorry you felt the need to personalize it, especially when I suggested that personal attacks were a primary problem with Leaf fanboy posts in the first place. Good luck with that!

 

[Adrian]

Newsflash - we get to decide what works for us just as you get to decide what works for you.

I wish everyone on this forum respected this statement. Sometimes that is not the case and I believe that in addition to the "fanboy" mentality, there is also a disposition by some to simply attack that which they disagree with. Having a civil discussion is informative; anything else is simply a waste of time.

 

[malloryk]

Newsflash - we get to decide what works for us just as you get to decide what works for you.

I wish everyone on this forum respected this statement. Sometimes that is not the case and I believe that in addition to the "fanboy" mentality, there is also a disposition by some to simply attack that which they disagree with. Having a civil discussion is informative; anything else is simply a waste of time.

well said, Adrian!

 

[TRONZ]

Right. You are in the percent of one percent who will buy a car you can hardly test drive to pursue an ideal for which you are prepared to make significant compromises.

BlueSL, think about it, you just described yourself and your personal problem better than anyone ever could. Why are you dumping your "problem" with the LEAF on people that love their cars??? To discourage would be buyers??? Being obsessed with claiming that everyone on this site (AKA Fanboys) has made compromises to drive a LEAF is profoundly ignorant of the product and others peoples lives. I get it, you claim to be singularly focused on range (that EVERYONE wants/needs more) and if I say I drive 22 miles a day then I am just a Fanboy and attacking you by not supporting your rant that the LEAF will not meet the needs of 100% of drivers 100% of the time. By your dictatorial topic/logic; If the LEAF is not suitable for everyone then we should not be fans of it.

 

[Stoaty]

In my opinion, calling those on this site Fanboys is grossly inaccurate and guaranteed to get some hackles up. See the 13 page thread titled "Nissan Wants to Know":

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3198

I think you will find plenty of complaints about things that are missing, don't work properly, etc. However, virtually no one is complaining about range in that thread, because we knew going in to the purchase what range Nissan was promising, and the information they gave us was pretty accurate. Certainly increased range would be a request for generation 2, providing of course that battery costs drop enough to allow Nissan to do that and still sell a car for the masses.