How fast is the public charging network being built-out ?

[mdh]

I am trying to gauge how fast or how many public chargers are being added in the Bay Area, California? What is the pace? Hard to see pure EVs being successful without this OR much longer range cars. I worry about Nissan being "successful" without longer range options for the car and/or a robust public charging infrastructure. It seems like most leaf reviews give the car high marks, but highlight the range issues.

thoughts?

 

[walterbays]

...What is the pace? Hard to see pure EVs being successful without this OR much longer range cars...

It seems quite fast in Oregon, and fairly fast in Texas, especially Austin and Houston (observed at a distance). It is very slow in California, especially here in San Diego. There were supposed to be 1452 stations installed by now in San Diego with DOE funding through the EV Project, including 45 quick charging stations. Instead there are just 10 L2 stations installed in one location, and these lack signs for EV parking only, so at busy times they are usually occupied by gasoline cars and inaccessible for EV charging. Meanwhile the private deployment of EV charging stations, which was supposed to have been "jump started" by the EV Project deployments, is proceeding at an encouraging pace without the EV Project. Then of course there are the Nissan dealers with L2 stations, and the state's only operational quick charging station at Mitsubishi headquarters.

Without much charging infrastructure the Leaf seems quite successful. Every time I go out I see other Leafs on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if once the supply constraints are relieved by the Tennessee plant, adoption were as quick as it was for the Prius. As a commuter car the Leaf can range over the whole county, and in a two car household the majority of miles can easily be driven in the Leaf. But a good public infrastructure will be necessary for Leaf to be practical for people with long commutes, single car households, two car households with inflexible constraints on use of each car, and people who live in apartments and rented houses.

 

[surfingslovak]

This is anecdotal at best, but I watch the number listed on the ChargePoint map fairly closely. Based on this, about 30 to 40 Coulomb stations were added in the SF Bay Area over the course of the past two months. Most of them seem to have gone into the San Francisco airport, but there is a number of these stations popping up elsewhere.

There are four new stations in South San Francisco, Vodafone in Walnut Creek just finished putting two stations into their garage, four stations were added in Palo Alto, six at Citrix in Santa Clara and the list goes on.

There are laggards as well, COSTCO being one of them. Then there is the City of Los Gatos, which turned down a grant to get free Coulomb stations to avoid vendor lock-in and to prepare a study. I believe that the City of San Francisco has in its infinite wisdom done something similar.

The sense I get is that the planning and execution horizon for a new station is about six months, and the new stations we are seeing now were approved a while ago. Hopefully as the demand grows, this process will accelerate.

 

[walterbays]

This is anecdotal at best, but I watch the number listed on the ChargePoint map fairly closely

My darker assessment of the build out is also anecdotal. You're lucky in Northern California to have Coulomb as the main EV Project contractor. They seem to be executing much more effectively than the Southern California contractor, ECOtality. http://blinknetwork.com/locator.html

 

[surfingslovak]

They seem to be executing much more effectively than the Southern California contractor, ECOtality.

Agreed. I like Coulomb and the few run-ins I had with ECOtality were not positive. Hopefully that will change or your region will select a different contractor.

 

[Herm]

Hard to see pure EVs being successful without this OR much longer range cars. I worry about Nissan being "successful" without longer range options for the car and/or a robust public charging infrastructure.

Its a myth, most owners get quickly used to the limited range and have no issues charging at home.

 

[garygid]

Yes, most owners manage to use the limited range, and charge mostly at home.

The myth is that they do not want more range and quick charging.

 

[tps]

Although there's very little infrastructure in my area yet, I think the that I'll eventually want to treat my (future) EV similar to my laptop. I don't even think about it; I just plug my laptop in when power is available. It seems to always have plenty of charge when power is not available. With an EV, this might translate to plugging it in whenever it's parked for more than just a few minutes. This would mean at home, at work, at the mall, at the movie, etc. I think Coulumb has the right idea, make EVSEs look just like oversized parking meters; if the cost of charging at those locations stays low enough, and they become ubiquitous, they've got a winner. And the RFID card makes it very easy. I can't say Coulumb has taken this area by storm yet, but they are clearly ahead of the pack. My vote is currently on them, because they seem to have the most flexibility in just about all areas as well as a commanding head start.

 

[TRONZ]

It is probably most responsible to only buy an EV if you know it meets your typical range requirements (like 90% of U.S. Families). Beyond home charging, a "frontier" attitude is best and only plan around charging situations you can control (portable EVSE) or stations you have easy access to. Range and infrastructure will only get better but don't count those eggs until they're hatched. It needs to work for you today.

 

[rpmdk]

It is probably most responsible to only buy an EV if you know it meets your typical range requirements (like 90% of U.S. Families). Beyond home charging, a "frontier" attitude is best and only plan around charging situations you can control (portable EVSE) or stations you have easy access to. Range and infrastructure will only get better but don't count those eggs until they're hatched. It needs to work for you today.

I agree with this - my original vision was a charging infrastructure stretching across the country allowing convenient charging most places we go, but now I'm starting to think by the time this could be built, batteries will be more robust, and it won't make sense anymore. There will definitely be a market for us early adopters trying to push the car beyond its range, but most people will just be charging at home.

I would prefer a bigger, better battery than a charge stations everywhere.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

hmm, well, I don't agree exactly. I would like more quick chargers so that I can take the leaf beyond it's metro design limits, but that said, I have yet to run into range limits with charging at home. a relatively small string of DC fast chargers along every major highway would probably do the trick for me but it would be mostly psychological, as I like the idea of being able to drive as much as I want even though I really don't go very far on a day to day basis, and from what I can tell, that is where a lot of Americans are at.
g

Yes, most owners manage to use the limited range, and charge mostly at home.

The myth is that they do not want more range and quick charging.

 

[rpmdk]

hmm, well, I don't agree exactly. I would like more quick chargers so that I can take the leaf beyond it's metro design limits, but that said, I have yet to run into range limits with charging at home. a relatively small string of DC fast chargers along every major highway would probably do the trick for me but it would be mostly psychological, as I like the idea of being able to drive as much as I want even though I really don't go very far on a day to day basis, and from what I can tell, that is where a lot of Americans are at.
g

Yes, most owners manage to use the limited range, and charge mostly at home.

The myth is that they do not want more range and quick charging.

I missed that in the earlier thread - that is quite a myth - who is out there promoting that?

as to the string of chargers, it doesn't make much sense to me with our current battery capacity - stopping every hour to charge for half an hour...

it would be OK if your destination is 2 hours away (and you can charge there), but beyond that it's no longer a road trip, it's a rest stop trip

 

[Herm]

The myth is that they do not want more range and quick charging.

wants and needs?

 

[walterbays]

it would be OK if your destination is 2 hours away (and you can charge there), but beyond that it's no longer a road trip, it's a rest stop trip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9NqSuk5gjQ&feature=player_embedded

 

[rpmdk]

that's awesome for those guys - I applaud pushing EVs as far as we can

they're averaging about 30 mph - definitely a rest stop trip

 

[evnow]

I am trying to gauge how fast or how many public chargers are being added in the Bay Area, California? What is the pace? Hard to see pure EVs being successful without this OR much longer range cars. I worry about Nissan being "successful" without longer range options for the car and/or a robust public charging infrastructure. It seems like most leaf reviews give the car high marks, but highlight the range issues.

Depends on your definition of success or about your time horizon. I agree in the long run for a major portion of ICE to be replaced by EVs, we need what you say we need. But in the short term it doesn't matter that much - as long as EV Project delivers what it has promised.

 

[walterbays]

they're averaging about 30 mph - definitely a rest stop trip

Yes, they said that they stopped about every chance they got, 20 stops in all, and that the time to charge the car was the same as the time to have a cup of coffee. I didn't see it if they said how fast they drove, nor whether they drove through cities on slow streets, nor whether they stopped for meals.

Here are some hypothetical trips with ideally placed quick charging stations and gas stations. You start with 100% charge or a full tank of gas. EV range is based on speed from Tony Williams' chart. (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295&hilit=range+thumb) ICE range is 300 miles. You drive to within 10 miles of your range limit. Then you stop and recharge to 80% in 20 minutes, or refill the gas and visit the convenience store etc. in 15 minutes. Repeat for 24 hours, ending after the last recharge or refueling stop. Since the range of the ICE car (4 hours at 70 mph) may exceed the stamina of its human driver I added one more case where the ICE car has a 30 minute rest stop every 2 hours. Here are the results:

EV @ 43 mph
80% charge takes you 76 miles in 2.1 hours with 10 mile margin
11 charging stops in 23.6 hours
858 miles. Average speed 36 mph

EV @ 50 mph
80% charge takes you 67 miles in 1.7 hours with 10 mile margin
14 charging stops in 23.9 hours
957 miles. Average speed 40 mph

EV @ 60 mph
80% charge takes you 55 miles in 1.3 hours with 10 mile margin
19 charging stops in 24.0 hours
1061 miles. Average speed 44 mph

EV @ 70 mph
80% charge takes you 44 miles in 1.0 hours with 10 mile margin
25 charging stops in 24.2 hours
1114 miles. Average speed 46 mph

ICE @ 70 mph
full tank takes you 290 miles in 4.1 hours with 10 mile margin
5 fueling stops in 22.0 hours
1450 miles. Average speed 66 mph

ICE @ 70 mph - human driver limited
stamina to drive 145 miles in 2.1 hours
9 rest & fuel stops in 23.1 hours
1305 miles. Average speed 56 mph

So I don't think I'll be driving San Diego to Vancouver (actually I'd fly). But San Diego to LA might be nice.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

In San Diego, the public charging network is being built-out at a rate of one new location every five months, thanks to the hyper-productive installation geniuses at ECOtality (Nasdaq: ECTY).

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

In a very short period of time we will see larger denser battery packs and having a decent QC charging network will really start to make sense. Even in the interim, I rarely go long distances and I know a lot of folks are that way. I do believe having a decent QC charging network will allow us to stretch the Leaf on that rare occasion and for some that will mean the difference between having to own one car vs two. The sooner folks can see their way to having a 100% electric car be their only car, the better, and once that happens, the push to expand the network will really start to snow ball.

As for the speed of the network being built, I see it two ways, I wonder what the heck is taking so long while on the other hand i feel grateful it's finally happening at all. If our "electric highway" goes in as fast as they say it's supposed to it will be very amazing, I guess we'll find out in a few short months!

http://westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighways.htm

"Through a competitive contract award process, AeroVironment was selected to manufacture, supply, install and operate a network of nine fast-charging stations (pdf 130kb)for electric vehicles. Stations will be located every 40 to 60 miles along stretches of I-5 between the Canadian border and Everett and between Olympia and the Oregon border, as well as along US 2 between Everett and Leavenworth. The fast-charging stations will be operational by Nov. 30, and will power an electric vehicle from zero to fully charged in less than 30 minutes."

hmm, well, I don't agree exactly. I would like more quick chargers so that I can take the leaf beyond it's metro design limits, but that said, I have yet to run into range limits with charging at home. a relatively small string of DC fast chargers along every major highway would probably do the trick for me but it would be mostly psychological, as I like the idea of being able to drive as much as I want even though I really don't go very far on a day to day basis, and from what I can tell, that is where a lot of Americans are at.
g

Yes, most owners manage to use the limited range, and charge mostly at home.

The myth is that they do not want more range and quick charging.

I missed that in the earlier thread - that is quite a myth - who is out there promoting that?

as to the string of chargers, it doesn't make much sense to me with our current battery capacity - stopping every hour to charge for half an hour...

it would be OK if your destination is 2 hours away (and you can charge there), but beyond that it's no longer a road trip, it's a rest stop trip

 

[planet4ever]

as to the string of chargers, it doesn't make much sense to me with our current battery capacity - stopping every hour to charge for half an hour...

it would be OK if your destination is 2 hours away (and you can charge there), but beyond that it's no longer a road trip, it's a rest stop trip

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't see what battery capacity has to do with it. Are you any better off if you stop every two hours to charge for one hour? You certainly don't improve your average speed that way.

Ray