Is your LEAF solar-powered, or will it be at some point?

[lemketron]

I'd like to see a poll created to find out how many LEAF owners already have solar (photovoltaic) panels at home, how many are planning to go solar, and how many are charging off the grid.

I'm basically trying to figure out what percentages of LEAFs are recharged off of regular old grid power vs those that are charged by people who installed (or plant to install) solar.

When I tell people that my zero-emission LEAF is powered by free power from the sun, as my 2.1KW system generates enough electricity annually to power 12K miles (likely more than my LEAF will ever drive in a year), the rebuttal I sometimes hear is that, in general, grid electricity has a fairly high carbon footprint, and not everyone driving a LEAF has solar. I actually wondered about that and would like to see if we can find out...

As an aside, since I'm now "allocating" my existing solar power to the LEAF, I'm considering more than doubling the size of my system to finally eliminate the rest of my electric bill. This will provide us with a solar powered home AND car. I strongly encourage solar for anyone who is driving a LEAF!!

 

[walterbays]

Poll result to date is 45% solar. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2151

 

[lemketron]

Poll result to date is 45% solar. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2151

OK, I remeber that poll now, but it has never worked for me, and even now it gives me an error when I try to submit my answer. Perhaps it works for everyone else, or perhaps others are also unable to answer... :-(

 

[intrepion]

Every poll I try on this site says this:

The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.

 

[walterbays]

I think that polls expire after some time unless a moderator extends or re-creates them. But back to the original topic...

I'm basically trying to figure out what percentages of LEAFs are recharged off of regular old grid power vs those that are charged by people who installed (or plant to install) solar.

If someone has no solar panels then in California they're using 8% coal power. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3607 I think my excess solar production will offset 50-75% of my driving needs. But then my solar power is flowing into the grid in the middle of the day when the utility needs to run the most expensive plants, and my car charges in the middle of the night when it runs the least expensive plants.

I don't know how the energy mix varies by time of day. I know utilities want to sell to EVs so that they can add more renewable power to the mix since a lot of wind power is generated at night when it might not otherwise be usable. But then I wonder if they also increase the proportion of both nuclear and coal in the nighttime mix since they're meeting a less variable baseline load.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I too use PV panels to charge the LEAF. We have a 6.7kW system that will have generated about 16,000 kWh when our first year is up June 2nd. Because we went over our house from top to bottom to conserve energy (super efficient heat pumps for A/C and heating, insulating shades that we put up at night during winter, efficient refrigerator and clothes washer and dish washer, solar hot water heating, dual pane windows, great insulation, and CFL and LED lighting) we have generated more than 6,000 kWh more than we have consumed. It will be somewhat less in the coming year now that we have our LEAF, but I calculate that driving 12,000 miles/year with 4 mi/kWh that we should only consume an additional 3,000 kWh/year. If you are interested I've written a rough outline of all the things that we have done to be energy independent. Send me a PM and I'll forward a copy to you.

However, I would like to point out to those that are using grid power to charge their LEAF, that the coal fired plants are getting much "greener" than they were. When we were displaying our LEAF recently we got into a discussion with an electric utility employee that went into quite amount of detail about how their coal plants were now using "bagging" and scrubbers to clean up the plants. I personally drove by one and saw that although there was water vapor coming out of the stacks that once the vapor was absorbed into the air there was NO brown cloud residue left over. On top of that a significant amount of power is not coming from coal fired plants. Arizona has one of the largest nuclear plants in the nation. Although all of these have their own disposal problems, the best bet is to take advantage of the electric utility rebates for solar and hot water heating and go solar.

On top of that consider that once the electricity is generated, the LEAF is some 90% efficient in converting that electricity into motion. In an ICE car the engine is only between 20-25% efficient. Thus, the ICE burns three to four times more gasoline to propel the car. Even though the newer vehicles produce less pollutants, they still have to burn much more gasoline than is necessary simply for propulsion. To those non-belivers just point out that the ICE car has a tailpipe that throws much of that lost heat efficiency into the air. Also, point out the size of the radiators in ICE vehicles that throws more lost heat into the atmosphere. Although the LEAF has a small radiator to liquid cool the electric motor, you would be hard put to find it because it is so small and there is no tailpipe.

The comment by non-believers that you are just transferring the pollution to the electric plant, is not true because the ICE vehicle still pollutes more.

 

[Mx5racer]

I am still waiting to see how the numbers work out,
May is usually one of my bests months for production and it looks
Like the panels are staying ahead of the house and the car.
Financially I am sure I will be positive because of Time of day rates, but I would
Still like to have a true solar powered car.
A pool pump upgrade may be what gets me the extra that I need

I got my first bill and I did use more but am $14 ahead

 

[TEG]

One set:

Another set on the garage...

The only way to go.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Solar car pending.....

 

[ElectricVehicle]

1999 Green GM EV1; 2002 Silver RAV4 EV; 2011 Nissan LEAF all powered from the 7.2kW Solar Electric (PV) I installed when I bought my house in 1999.

In my forum picture / avatar, you can see me attempting to power the LEAF I test drove from a 50 watt solar panel I borought to the EVent to help others make the logical EV + PV connection! I didn't succeed at the time since they only allowed me 3 minutes for the photo op and I didn't have a J1772 EVSE connector yet!

 

[planet4ever]

When I tell people that my zero-emission LEAF is powered by free power from the sun, as my 2.1KW system generates enough electricity annually to power 12K miles (likely more than my LEAF will ever drive in a year), the rebuttal I sometimes hear is that, in general, grid electricity has a fairly high carbon footprint, and not everyone driving a LEAF has solar.

The rule of thumb I remember is that if your electricity comes 100% from coal, then the carbon footprint of an EV is comparable to that of a 50 mpg car.

But you, lemketron, are in Sunnyvale, which is PG&E territory. Working from memory here, I believe PG&E electricity is only about 2% coal, 50% natural gas, and all the rest essentially carbon free. That includes a lot of large scale hydro (i.e. big dams), which for some reason I don't understand is not considered to be renewable. It also includes a fair chunk of nuclear, which makes many people shudder, but you have to admit it doesn't emit carbon. And to top it off, natural gas emits a lot less carbon than coal per kWh generated, apparently due to burning efficiency. So, if my calculations and estimates are right, an EV running on PG&E power must be responsible for about as much carbon as an ICE car getting around 150 to 200 mpg.

Ray

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Solar is a dream of mine, hoping to make it reality in the next couple of years. For the interim I signed up for the "Green UP" program with our utility at the 100% level, assuring 100% of my electricity was accounted for by renewables (84% geothermal from Idaho, some bio-gas and micro hydro), for a nominal 10% up charge. the 100% program is based on 100% of the average user. With a simple call, I had them adjust up to what my utility consumption has actually been and added on the likely amount the leaf will consume. They said it would be no problem to tweak the amount of the up-charge every 6 months (currently $15 a month, instead of the $3/$6/12% for 25%/50%/100% standard charge based on averages). I think of it as a kind of net metering as the exact electrons going into the leaf are in actuality a mix of Mass hydro, coal nuclear and renewable. Large scale hydro is not considered renewable because of the environmental impact on salmon runs etc.

I would love to see every leaf owner who has a "green up" option on their utility bill at the very least sign up for that immediately as they consider having their own solar installed. There will be a lot of folks who simply can't make the considerable investment that PV represents or who rent or who are not sure if they are going to stay in their home long enough to make it worth while. the "green up" approach is a good option for those who want a quick and relatively cheap way to assure that the added strain on the grid from their EV doesn't add to pressure to burn more coal/NG or split more atoms. Over 800 utilities across the country offer some kind of green up program.

It would be nice to see Nissan handing out some info on this, to encourage their customers to support environmentally friendly sources of electricity production and it could cause an explosion in renewable energy development! If renewables don't take off soon and the EV revolution does, I fear the movement will result in a massive proliferation in Nuclear energy and we just have not figured out how to deal with the waste economically or safely, nor have we been able to develop safety systems that are fail safe for all of the various types of disasters that periodically occur.

George

 

[ElectricVehicle]

When I tell people that my zero-emission LEAF is powered by free power from the sun, as my 2.1KW system generates enough electricity annually to power 12K miles (likely more than my LEAF will ever drive in a year), the rebuttal I sometimes hear is that, in general, grid electricity has a fairly high carbon footprint, and not everyone driving a LEAF has solar.

The rule of thumb I remember is that if your electricity comes 100% from coal, then the carbon footprint of an EV is comparable to that of a 50 mpg car.

But you, lemketron, are in Sunnyvale, which is PG&E territory. Working from memory here, I believe PG&E electricity is only about 2% coal, 50% natural gas, and all the rest essentially carbon free. That includes a lot of large scale hydro (i.e. big dams), which for some reason I don't understand is not considered to be renewable. It also includes a fair chunk of nuclear, which makes many people shudder, but you have to admit it doesn't emit carbon. And to top it off, natural gas emits a lot less carbon than coal per kWh generated, apparently due to burning efficiency. So, if my calculations and estimates are right, an EV running on PG&E power must be responsible for about as much carbon as an ICE car getting around 150 to 200 mpg.

PG&E 2009 Power Mix (the most recent one I found in a quick search)

1.3% coal
13.0% large hydro
14.4% renewables (such as wind, geothermal, biomass and small hydro)
20.5% nuclear
34.6% natural gas
1.2% other fossil-based resources
15.0% unspecified

PG&E 2009 Power Mix (from a bill insert)
http://www.pge.com/myhome/environment/pge/cleanenergy/

 

[LEAFfan]

There will be a lot of folks who simply can't make the considerable investment that PV represents or who rent or who are not sure if they are going to stay in their home long enough to make it worth while.
George

You may want to move to AZ where PVs are much cheaper than CA or WA.
Our system cost me under $5K out-of-pocket with a payback in 4-5 years. Even with the lower utility rebates now, it still would only cost $8-9K out-of-pocket.

 

[patrick0101]

I requested "SOLR EV" for my Leaf's license plate. We'll see if I get it.

 

[LEAFfan]

I requested "SOLR EV" for my Leaf's license plate. We'll see if I get it.

You should have put that in the 'Personalized License Plate' thread Pat.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

There will be a lot of folks who simply can't make the considerable investment that PV represents or who rent or who are not sure if they are going to stay in their home long enough to make it worth while.
George

You may want to move to AZ where PVs are much cheaper than CA or WA.
Our system cost me under $5K out-of-pocket with a payback in 4-5 years. Even with the lower utility rebates now, it still would only cost $8-9K out-of-pocket.

I almost moved to Prescot years ago but I'd miss the water to much but wow, that is a lot cheaper than what I've been quoted up here. I wonder why it's so much less. Not sure if that is a matter of needing a larger array here to get the same output or if there just isn't enough competition among installers. With the 30% federal rebate and the rate of utility net metering here (up to three times what you pay for electricity, depending on whether the panels are produced in WA state or not) the pay back is said to be 9 years.

g

 

[rainnw]

If I could get around 6kW-10kW/day, just to charge the car, i would love to go solar. But with an average of 4 hours a day here in Seattle, it might have to be a pretty sizable system.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I don't know if you have this in Seattle (GaslessInSeattle) or not, but in the Phoenix area there are operations that let you get into solar immediately. I personally know of three different scenarios. In our case we purchased the system and signed over the "green" rights to our utility. It took a lot of up-front money but the utility (a utility outside of Phoenix) subsidized half the cost and then we got the 30% tax credit besides. The second case is a friend of mine that put up $5,000 and got an array many times that cost. He has a contract with the solar installation company that he pays them a small amount each month but has a much smaller electric bill. He doesn't own the system (at least for 10 years) but is actually covering nearly all of his electrical needs with solar. The third case is my next door neighbor (at my Phoenix house) that paid nothing up front. He too is meeting nearly all his needs with solar. He pays the solar company a larger amount but he still is paying about $70 per month less than if he didn't have the solar panels. It might be something to investigate in your area.

 

[FairwoodRed]

If I could get around 6kW-10kW/day, just to charge the car, i would love to go solar. But with an average of 4 hours a day here in Seattle, it might have to be a pretty sizable system.

I've been planning my solar system over the last year and yes, it is sizeable because of the average sunlight hours. But not as bad as you might think, because we also have lower average temps. (As temp goes up, PV output goes down.) For my situation, My home uses 5200 kWh per year and I planned for between 3000 & 6000 kWh for the leaf. I figured I could fit a 14kW system on my roof and that it would produce 11kWh per year (9200 after winter shading). 2/3rds of that comes from the south facing panels. The North, East, and West panels produce the other 1/3rd.

My out of pocket cost will be $42k for this large system. $12k will come back in federal credits, $12k in State production credits (over 9 years), and another $8k in avoided electricity costs (over the same 9 years). I'll only get 75% back after 9 years. I could cut my shading losses from 15% to 4% if I trimmed my trees, but I don't think I want to do that. Oh, and I am fully installing this system myself.

The bottom line is it is hard to justify solar in WA based on economics.