Keeping a Leaf long-term: Buy@end of lease? Extend warranty?

[TimLee]

...

When leasing, NMAC already pre-determined the residual value of the car. So the residual value of the car is fixed 3 years into the future. So NMAC is taking the risk of the depreciation.

At the end of lease, if the car is worth less than the pre-determined residual value, you just walk away and NMAC takes the hit on the depreciation. If the car is worth the same or more than the pre-determine residual value, then you have options to buy and keep it, buy it then sell to a private party or trade in and use the difference in next down payment.

...

But you left out that Nissan has set such high residuals in some years that to attempt to slow the precipitous drop in market value of the LEAF, that they offered substantial reductions of the residual on 2012 and 2013 LEAFs to attempt to get the leasees to purchase them and reduce the huge # they end up selling at even bigger losses at auction.

Most recently they are offering a $5,000 residual reduction on the 2013 LEAF, or a one year lease extension with two no monthly payment required coupons.

For the 2013 the monthly lease costs were so low and now with the residual reductions if you want to purchase the car, that leasing was the much, much cheaper way to own a 2013. Only way it would not be is if your annual mileage was huge.

All of this is why more than 85% of the LEAFs Nissan produces for the US are being leased. The 85% is what Nissan manager stated a couple years back at Society of Environmental Writer's annual meeting.

 

[SaveOurPlanet]

Thank you again everyone for your replies.

Good to know one will be indeed able to finance the purchase at the end of the lease, either with NMAC, or with some credit union or other third-party lender.

Now another question comes to my mind, just in case anybody happens to know: How is the procedure with the California $2,500 EV rebate? F.e. the lease offer quoted on page 1 of this thread included a $2,500 down payment, so the California EV rebate could be used. So one pays the $2,500 at the dealer first oneself. I think I got that. So how does one get the $2,500 back? Which authority does one have to contact? When, after how many days and weeks is the rebate money actually in the hands of the consumer?

 

[LightningLeaf]

Thank you again everyone for your replies.

Good to know one will be indeed able to finance the purchase at the end of the lease, either with NMAC, or with some credit union or other third-party lender.

Now another question comes to my mind, just in case anybody happens to know: How is the procedure with the California $2,500 EV rebate? F.e. the lease offer quoted on page 1 of this thread included a $2,500 down payment, so the California EV rebate could be used. So one pays the $2,500 at the dealer first oneself. I think I got that. So how does one get the $2,500 back? Which authority does one have to contact? When, after how many days and weeks is the rebate money actually in the hands of the consumer?

The internet sales manager sat down with me and registered online while I was still at dealership. Then I got a confirmation email next day. From there, you have 2 weeks to submit all the information needed. You need to submit a signed application, which is attached to the email, copy of lease, copy of driver license and copy of temporary registration. You can scan the documents and upload to the linked website or you can mail the documents.

Then a confirmation email will be sent to you once Clean Vehicle Rebate Project received all the documents. Based on what I have read, it may take few months to receive the check.

You are correct, we are not really paying a down payment because it will be refunded as California EV rebate. So the total cost of the lease is monthly payment with tax multiply by 35 months, since the first payment is in the down payment.

So the total cost of the car is your total 35 months of lease payment plus the pre-determined residual value. TimLee just posted that Nissan is offering substantial reduction in the residual value of the car so this would reduce the purchase price at the end of lease even further.

Have you leased the car yet?

 

[tkdbrusco]

I will point out that technically rebates over $600 in CA are considered taxable income, so you are obligated to report it on your taxes for that year. That being said, the website for this rebate says that they don't file a 1099 with the IRS, but they don't clarify whether or not that means you must report the income, but it does mean that the IRS won't have an official record of it. Its up to you to decide what to do.

 

[SaveOurPlanet]

@tdkbrusco: thank you for mentioning that rebates of $600 or more are considered taxable income in California.

@LightningLeaf: thank you for telling about your experience, that the internet sales manager in the dealership helped you regarding the forms for the California EV rebate. And also thank you for mentioning that it can take a "few months" until the check actually comes in the mail, which does seem like a considerable amount of time though, and quite different like other incentives or rebates that work instantly or at least very quickly.

 

[SaveOurPlanet]

Have you leased the car yet?

Have not leased a Nissan Leaf in California yet. Currently leasing one in Europe. As a move to California might possibly come up kind of soon, I'm trying to gather the respective information.

And it is indeed not possible to somehow transfer and finish the lease in the US, even if the same "2012 Nissan Leafs" (though it was delivered to me in fall 2013) also were transported from Oppama to the US and sold there, besides from being transported to Europe and sold there; it is actually not even allowed to be temporarily operated there, according to the bank. The owner of the leased vehicle, the wonderful RCI Banque (it's Renault's bank, it handles all Nissan leases in Europe and some other places) already said as it is not possible to get out of the lease ahead of time, my only option is to find someone else to finish the lease (think of something similar like LeaseTrader in Europe). And even somebody else taking over the lease is only possible if the dealership agrees to it, and if a 185 Euro fee is paid.

Here is my personal comparison of a 2015 Nissan Leaf in California to leasing a 2012 Nissan Leaf with winter package and solar spoiler (there were no SV and SL trim lines in Europe) - though the comparison is a little off because of the different mileage included in the lease:

Nissan Leaf 36 month lease - monthly lease cost

Europe: For a 30,000km/3year 199 Euro a month, "sales tax" included. So ca. 167 Euro pre-tax per month, and ca. 32 Euro value added tax per month. But as all prices are tax-inclusive, and also advertised as such, so 199 Euro a month. 199 Euro x 36 = 7,164 Euro

California: For 12,000mi/3year, according to the Dublin Nissan March 2015 offer, an SV with Quick Charge and LED package is $2,500 + 1st payment, and $231 + tax for non VPP customers. (Yes, the S with Quick Charge seems to be substantially cheaper at $186 + tax). So if one calculates 9% sales tax, then the total monthly cost should be $251.79. Do the $2,500 include the roughly $300 for the registration, and any Tax on Capitalized Cost Reduction? Assuming that that would be the case, then it's $251.79 x 36 = $9,064.44 plus $2,500 = $11,564.44 (though these $2,500 might be refunded, if the state of California EV refund program is not out of money or terminated by that time).


Nissan Leaf 36 month lease - other costs

Europe: no destination fee. About 115 Euro as a one-time expense to be paid when picking up the car for registration and license plates. No annual car tax/road users fee, as electric cars are exempt from that for a couple of years still. No personal property tax on cars. There is an annual inspection to be done at a Nissan dealership, in order to keep the warranty active, which costs average at around 100 Euro.

The only other cost is insurance. F.e. 491 Euro a year, including
- Bodily Injury Liability Coverage of 7.5 million Euro, Property Damage Liability Coverage of 1.2 million Euro
- Comprehensive/Collision coverage with a 500 Euro deductible
- an Out-Of-Country insurance option if someone abroad causes an accident with you and your vehicle, where your own insurance pays first right away, and then goes after the insurance company of the person causing the accident, located in the other country, to get the money from them
- the out-of-country option includes uninsured motorist protection when abroad
- and an "AAA replacement" type coverage that tows you to a repair shop, or provides you a free rental car or flight/train ride to get a home.
Finally, GAP insurance for the leased vehicle is also included.
The 491 Euro is a flat group rate for EV owners only, so it's open to everyone with an EV, and the same price for everyone, regardless of how long the insured person already has the vehicle or a licence. And the rate will not go up, when one caused damage - on the other hand rates will not go down ever, even if one never caused an accident.

California: The registration fees can be calculated on the official California DOT website, and there is already a thread here on the forum about Nissan Leaf registration fee. People there seem to report of roughly $270 in registration fees.
In California, thankfully the first two inspections seem to be free. Emissions testing does not seem necessary for an EV.
There already is a recent thread on this forum about insurance for the Leaf.
Amica and Wawanesa do not offer online quotes, still a ballpark estimate for a 2014 Nissan Leaf SV on Nerdwallet's insurance calculator shows $103 monthly, $615 6-month (so $1,230 annual) for "Extended Coverage", that includes
- $100k / $300k Bodily Injury (BI)
- $50k Property Damage
- $100k / $300k Uninsured Motorist BI Coverage
- $50k Uninsured Motorist Property Damage Coverage
- $500 Deductible
- $75 Towing Coverage
- $600 Rental Car Coverage
- No Full Glass Coverage
So $1,230/year would end up being $3,690 for insurance during the course of the lease.
What other costs did I forget (besides electricity, leaving this out of the calculation for now)?


Nissan Leaf 36 month lease - end of lease

Europe: No end of lease fee of any kind. Only mileage and damages/excess wear and tear. Each kilometer more costs 0.08Euro extra, each kilometer less means a refund of 0.04Euro. There is no 30 day before end of lease inspection, just on the day of the return of the car, it is being inspected. No possibility to purchase the car at the end of the lease. In the past, the experience was like it that Nissan was very strict regarding the damages and excess wear and tear, unless one got another vehicle from them.

California: A $395 disposition fee has to be paid at the termination of the lease contract. Extra mileage is 15cents/mile. No refund for unused mileage. There is a complimentary inspection before the end of the lease, and then on a different day, possibly weeks later, the vehicle is returned at a dealership. Reports seem to indicate to me that a lot of times Nissan in California has to been so draconian regarding damages/excess wear and tear as Nissan in Europe often seems to be. Most of all, one always has all options at the end of the lease, while most of the time in Europe, the only option is to return the car (no purchase).


Nissan Leaf 36 month lease - total cost of use

Europe: 199 Euro x 36 = 7164 Euro
plus 115 Euro registration/license plates = 7279 Euro
plus 491 Euro insurance x 3 (so 1473 Euro) = 8752 Euro
plus about 100 Euro x 3 annual inspection (so 300 Euro) = 9052 Euro total cost
9052 Euro / 36 months = 251.44 Euro bottom-line monthly cost
In addition, the damages/excess wear and tear, and extra mileage (or refund of unused mileage).

California: $251.79 x 36 = $9,064.44 (being optimistic that the $2,500 in drive-off can be recouped through the CA EV refund)
plus $270 x 2 = $540 for 2 times for registration after one and two years (first registration hopefully included in $2,500 drive-off costs) = $9,604.44
plus $1,230 x 3 = $3,690 for 3 years of insurance = $13,294.44
plus $395 disposition fee = $13,589.44 total cost
$13,589.44 / 36 months = $377.48 bottom-line monthly cost
In addition, the damages/excess wear and tear, and extra mileage (no refund of unused mileage).



Somehow it seems like, the use of the Nissan Leaf would be significantly more expensive in California in this case. On the other hand, there is the big advantage that one could just purchase and keep the vehicle at the end of the lease.

This recent thread here on the forum about the 2015 Leaf residuals indicates Nissan lowered them quite a bit when compared to the higher 2013 Leaf residuals that the residual reduction offers were sent out for.
According to the cars.com residual values linked to in the mentioned thread, a 2015 Leaf SV with an MSRP of $34,480 has a residual of just 35%, a residual value of $12,300. So in case Nissan actually calculates with this now, and that's what new lease contracts state now as a residual one could purchase the vehicle for at the end of lease, then that could be very attractive in any case, also without an extra residual reduction offer. $12,300 for a 3 year old used Leaf, that one drove oneself and so one knows that it has been treated good, that could be a very attractive offer, that sadly does not exist in Europe, even though - contrary to Europe - tax is not included, so actually it would be about $13,407 including sales tax if Nissan decided to set the residual like that.

If the residual was only $12,300, and the other above numbers were also correct, then one would be able to own a 2015 Nissan Leaf for $13,407 + $9,064.44 + $395 = $22,848.44, which possibly would be cheaper than financing a $36,000 + tax vehicle, so possibly $39,240 including sales tax, even when considering in that when buying one could possibly deduct $2,500 and $7,500 in rebate/tax credit and get a few thousands in NMAC or dealer money.

 

[RamG]

I just paid $10,500 for a 2011. 0 down and $192 a month payment. The car is like new. It has 10 bars at 29,000 miles. I may or may not qualify for a new battery before warranty runs out. But if not, the $6000ish new tech battery will be worth installing. I'm hoping for better range batteries to install by then too. But I'm a guy that owns vehicles for years. 87 jeep Cherokee, 87 Porsche, 87 T-bird, 81 Camaro, 94 metro, 87 Sprint, 80 Datsun, 65 Caprice, etc..

Thanks a great buy. I have 2011 leaf in Bay Area would love to sell for a bigger car for the family. Enjoy your leaf! It's a great car once the range is taken care of or works for you.

 

[minispeed]

Thank you very much for your response.
Regarding "Purchasing only makes sense [if] you plan to keep the car forever", to keep the Leaf "forever" was the idea, that was meant by "long-term".

Yes, resale value drops. But as the idea is to keep a car "forever", the question is only if to finance at the beginning is a better idea. Or to lease first for three years, and then buy the vehicle at the end of the lease.

I'll put a different spin on this than some of the others. You basically have 3 options when buying a car. Cash purchase, finance purchase and lease. They usually have different incentives for each one. Calculate your total cost of ownership on each, include buy out and taxes at the end for lease.

Now my vote for the leaf is on lease. We know that currently Nissan has been offering up to $5000 at the end because of the current value of a used BEV with limited range. What do you think will happen in the summer of 2018 when people will have a minimum of 3 brand new high range (150-200 mile) BEVs for sale and the Tesla model S 60 used will probably be in the price range of those same people. There will probably also be many cheaper PHEV that will get people who drive low miles on a very high percentage of electric miles. I'd look at it like a gamble. You can easily calculate the max cost to you, there is a very high chance that you will pay at least $2000 under that with a good but decreasing chance that you might get more than $5000 off. It actually wouldn't shock me if buy outs post 2017 are in the 50% range of residuals.

Leasing has another advantage, if your car is a lemon you turn it in. There's no question to buy the extended warrantee up front, most cars that need them show signs of needing them during the original warrantee. That's the reason almost all car makers are in the certified pre owned game with 100,000+ mile warrantees. It's less of a gamble to them when they can pick and choose which cars get it based on the past knowledge of which ones had flaws. You should look at it the same way. You only choose to keep it if it's been flawless in which case the extended warrantee is a waste of money.

I did the math and for me in the long run it would cost a small amount more if I buy out my lease at full value. The lower monthly payments will help a lot when the wife takes time off when we have kids but there's the potential to get the residual knocked down a lot at the end.