LEAF's "gradual capacity loss NOT covered" battery warranty

[AndyH]

With respect - this is off topic, not about the Leaf battery, and dangerously confusing to most owners. And it's been covered on this forum already in a number of threads in various levels of gory detail.

The car will not allow us to damage the pack - and nothing about the owner experience requires awareness of any of the details of how lithium cobalt cells are used in laptops, MP3 players, or Tesla roadsters.

Let's take it to another thread?

 

[twingo]

The battery is by far the weak link in the Leaf. As far as I'm concerned, the resale value of a 7-year old Leaf will be zero since the next owner will have to replace the battery for maybe $10K, twice as much as the value of the car at that time. This has always been the biggest financial concern for me to justify buying one. But I'm going ahead anyway, because the financial part is not really on my radar as a reason for buying one. For me, it's about reducing our consumption of natural resources, reducing our impact on the environemnt, reducing our dependence on foreign oil and leaving a better place for future generations. It is not all about me, me, me.

 

[ENIAC]

It's not a battery, it's a battery pack composed of modules. After a decade you'll swap out the weakest modules with new technology modules. The new modules will be cheaper than the original modules and have greater energy density than the previous generation. The old modules will still have value, because they will still have significant capacity remaining for applications such as storing electricity from your solar generation for many more years, for example.

If you are concerned about batteries then lease your LEAF.

The battery is by far the weak link in the Leaf. As far as I'm concerned, the resale value of a 7-year old Leaf will be zero since the next owner will have to replace the battery for maybe $10K, twice as much as the value of the car at that time. This has always been the biggest financial concern for me to justify buying one. But I'm going ahead anyway, because the financial part is not really on my radar as a reason for buying one. For me, it's about reducing our consumption of natural resources, reducing our impact on the environemnt, reducing our dependence on foreign oil and leaving a better place for future generations. It is not all about me, me, me.

 

[Herm]

The battery is by far the weak link in the Leaf. As far as I'm concerned, the resale value of a 7-year old Leaf will be zero since the next owner will have to replace the battery for maybe $10K, twice as much as the value of the car at that time.

Life will be anywhere from 6 to 12 years, and you would not have bought any gas by that time or done much maintenance.. then your worn out Leaf will be snapped up by someone that will replace the battery with the newer, better, cheaper batteries available then. If inflation ratchets up then your worn out Leaf may be worth more than what you paid for it.

Its hard to predict the future, but the resale value of gasoline cars will also be affected by the cost and availability of fuel.

I dont, but many people consider a 10 year old car / 150k miles to be "expended".

 

[xRB]

It's not a battery, it's a battery pack composed of modules. After a decade you'll swap out the weakest modules with new technology modules. The new modules will be cheaper than the original modules and have greater energy density than the previous generation. The old modules will still have value, because they will still have significant capacity remaining for applications such as storing electricity from your solar generation for many more years, for example.

If you are concerned about batteries then lease your LEAF.

The battery is by far the weak link in the Leaf. As far as I'm concerned, the resale value of a 7-year old Leaf will be zero since the next owner will have to replace the battery for maybe $10K, twice as much as the value of the car at that time. This has always been the biggest financial concern for me to justify buying one. But I'm going ahead anyway, because the financial part is not really on my radar as a reason for buying one. For me, it's about reducing our consumption of natural resources, reducing our impact on the environemnt, reducing our dependence on foreign oil and leaving a better place for future generations. It is not all about me, me, me.

At the Leaf demo in Raleigh the "technical" explainer implied that replacing older type battery modules with a newer type was not a given. He described the ability to do that as "an important goal." As we all know, usually one doesn't mix battery types in the same device, because mixed types don't play well together.

But I'm more enthusiastic than the spirit of this post. The goal that I have is to drive an electric car, not get one as a museum piece or to be saved up for some future time. That is, I'm going to try to use the battery, not save it, and I'm going to have fun driving the car as much and as often as I can. In an electric car the battery is not forever but is rather a consumable, so when it has to be replaced, it will be, and my plan is to continue to enjoy the car.

 

[edatoakrun]

The battery is by far the weak link in the Leaf. As far as I'm concerned, the resale value of a 7-year old Leaf will be zero since the next owner will have to replace the battery for maybe $10K, twice as much as the value of the car at that time. This has always been the biggest financial concern for me to justify buying one. But I'm going ahead anyway, because the financial part is not really on my radar as a reason for buying one. For me, it's about reducing our consumption of natural resources, reducing our impact on the environemnt, reducing our dependence on foreign oil and leaving a better place for future generations. It is not all about me, me, me.

I think your forecast of relative BEV/ICEV resale values will likely prove to be incorrect.

I believe the greater risk in resale value is being taken by purchasers of new ICEVs today.

The cost of fuel becomes a far higher component of total operating costs as as a new vehicle depreciates over time. By the time a LEAF is 7 years old, the increased cost of a year's worth of fuel for an ICEV vehicle over a BEV, is likely to be much higher than the current $1,000-$2000 dollars (using off-peak charging rates). As long as the EV refueling infrastructure is in place by 2018, buyers will likely pay much more for a used BEV, in order to save thousands of dollars a year on gas.

For example, over the last few months of gas price increases, the prices of used ICEVs that get 30-50 miles per gallon have risen dramatically, as the prices of less fuel-efficient used cars have not, even though their fuel cost savings are a small fraction of those the prospective BEV/ICEV buyer will face in 2018.

As for Battery costs, I doubt that these will greatly exceed (and may even be less than) the increased maintenance and repair costs ICEVs will require over time, VS the (likely longer) useful lives of BEVs purchased today.

 

[AndyH]

It's hard to really wrap our minds around, but we have more than 10 years of info on modern EVs. Some mid-90s EVs have more than 100,000 miles on original batteries and original brakes.

Lithium is more efficient and on paper should have a longer useful life than NiMH - and that suggests we're going to be happy campers when our Gen1 Leafs turn 10.

Weak link on EVs? Tires and wiper blades.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think we need to realize that EVs must follow a different set of rules because they are simply different kinds of cars.

another thing we need to get away from is that EVs will be a lot cheaper to drive. well, that aint gonna happen. the cost of driving is EXPENSIVE period. whether it an EV or a regular gas car, they will get you.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=60

i think that looking at battery replacement costs as a "repair" is not valid. it should be looked at as depreciation.

 

[twingo]

Good discussion people. Nobody really knows how the market will evolve in 7 or 10 years from now, but there are some interesting ideas here. Like I said, for me, it's not a financial decision anyway, but for mainstream car buyers, it probably is.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Good discussion people. Nobody really knows how the market will evolve in 7 or 10 years from now, but there are some interesting ideas here. Like I said, for me, it's not a financial decision anyway, but for mainstream car buyers, it probably is.

Amen Brother Amen!!