Marketing Suggestions for Nissan: Let's Get Serious

[Nubo]

In some ways this feels like a replay of my last new car -- 2004 Mazda Rx-8. I am going to greatly simplify for ease of discussion...


Like the LEAF, initial sales were to enthusiasts. Owners quickly noticed some problems with the car. And as time dragged on, more and more there was frustration that Mazda was not responding to the issues.

After considerable (too much) time had passed, Mazda did respond. In fact it was a very generous response -- increasing the powertrain warranty from 3 to 8 years.

But by that time the damage had been done. The problems had driven off new customers and dealerships hated the car. Sales never recovered.

I didn't suffer the problems. But I sure wish that Mazda had been quicker and more forthcoming with that initial group of enthusiasts -- for the sake of the technology (rotary engine, btw).

Likewise with the LEAF, I don't expect to bit hit hard by temperature-related degradation. But I wish to hell that Nissan would acknowledge the issue and be straight with this initial band of enthusiasts who came into this venture with energy and the willingness to be ambassadors for the car.

Sure they have to be careful how to approach a dialogue. But I disagree with the lawyers-in-love approach that just ends up with "say nothing" being the answer.

Maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe this is the Japanese approach. I don't think it plays well here. For American consumer, honesty is the best policy. Show us you care. Show us you are taking things seriously. Put some cards on the table. Do these things and be amazed at how your enthusiasts will stand behind you.

I'd hate to see the LEAF founder because of a close-lipped, too-late approach for addressing the problem. And all the worse because we all know that there are legions of people out there who would like nothing better than for it to fail and will seize upon any perceived weakness.

C'mon Nissan. Don't go down that road. Maybe you can't fix the problem today. But you can sure start getting some real dialog going.

Some say "you can't be too careful". I disagree. The dustbin of history is full of the ashes of those who were too careful.

 

[Stoaty]

i tried to assess the real loss of functionality in a thread and received a minimal response. granted we are microcosm of the LEAF world but there is literally less than a dozen people who "might" be in danger of not being able to make their commute due to the loss of range in the near future.

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Nissan did not disclose a material fact about the Leaf battery pack in hot climates... and still isn't disclosing it pre-sale from what I understand (if the acknowledgment you have to sign about battery pack capacity has been changed, I certainly haven't heard it). They now say it is "normal". The reason I now distrust Nissan is not because I distrust businesses generally, but because of this specific breach of trust. Now I wonder about the "70-80% over 8 years" or whatever they claimed--even for people like me in generally cooler climates. Is this true, or more "marketing"? You have to maintain the customers confidence in your business and your product and be sure that your communications are truthful and adequately disclose any known problems or limitations.

I am not planning to recommend the Leaf to anyone until Nissan is more forthcoming about the problem and takes action to make things right. It isn't too late for Nissan to correct the problem, but time is passing...

PS I still love my Leaf and do not regret my purchase in any way. However, I no longer take the Leaf where it will be in temperatures over 95 degrees for a substantial period of time.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

GM's response to Volt fires was applicable and a much much much more serious issue. they were addressing people who thought they might DIE in a Volt. not the same as having to charge more often to get somewhere...hope we can at least see that.

i think what we all fail to consider is that we all think that because we have lost 15% in a year that in 3 years we will have lost 45%. that is a stretch. a BIG one.

for all we know, it could simply level off. we dont know but i am betting Nissan knows and i am betting they came into this FULLY aware of what AZ owners would see at this point. so lets assume that nothing happening right now is something Nissan did not know so we can conjecture (since this thread is 100% conjecture)

1) the warnings about degradation would only apply to people in hot areas and people like me might be lucky to see a 10% degradation in 10 years.

result; looks like might still have 70% 10 years down the line anyway. now, might be at 75% after a few years...but

2) the battery issues are much worse and permanent. but initially constrained supply, poor exchange rates and much higher manufacturing costs in Japan precluded them from adding a more robust BMS so it was a marketing decision based on not wanting to price the LEAF as much as a Volt

result; TN plant alleviates supply issue, exchange rates, shipping costs, etc. as soon as people have determined they have lost a set capacity (might be 30% which would kinda suck...but) Nissan gambles that no one will be down that low before TN plant comes on line. battery packs are reconditioned on the cheap. word of smiling mouths does its thing, everyone is happy

Nissan announces a better BMS but no price increase due to reasons stated above

**edit**

another thread was discussing what it would take to add cooling to the pack. well, it would realistically require a nearly complete redesign and retool. now how much does it cost to retool a brand new plant?? nothing if the design had already been hashed out and the plant was built to the new specs to begin with.. now THAT is conjecture!@!

but is it now? someone reported here over a year ago about Nissan testing LEAFs in the AZ heat and we thought it a bit of curiosity. now that all the battery issues are manifesting, it makes a bit more sense

 

[EdmondLeaf]

but is it now? someone reported here over a year ago about Nissan testing LEAFs in the AZ heat and we thought it a bit of curiosity. now that all the battery issues are manifesting, it makes a bit more sense

Comment From Johnny Sebring
Rumor has it Nissan is running a couple LEAFs continuously on a track in AZ stopping only to quick charge and relieve drivers. Is this true?

1:32
Mark Perry: johnny...no rumor. We have a test facility where we do long term testing of lots of vehicles. The track is banked oval, 5.5 miles long and gives the test drives chances to rack up lots of miles in pretty tough conditions. I was there just last month! Rule is if anything on the track is smaller than you...do NOT swerve.

that was the answer

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

but is it now? someone reported here over a year ago about Nissan testing LEAFs in the AZ heat and we thought it a bit of curiosity. now that all the battery issues are manifesting, it makes a bit more sense

Comment From Johnny Sebring
Rumor has it Nissan is running a couple LEAFs continuously on a track in AZ stopping only to quick charge and relieve drivers. Is this true?

1:32
Mark Perry: johnny...no rumor. We have a test facility where we do long term testing of lots of vehicles. The track is banked oval, 5.5 miles long and gives the test drives chances to rack up lots of miles in pretty tough conditions. I was there just last month! Rule is if anything on the track is smaller than you...do NOT swerve.

that was the answer

hmmm, not much of an answer. AZ climate runs the gamut. could be a cooler area of the state than Phoenix. anyone know where this place is?

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Nissan Technical Center North America, Inc. Arizona Testing Center

ADDRESS 7815 North White and Parker Road, Stanfield, AZ 85272-9642, U.S.A.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Nissan Technical Center North America, Inc. Arizona Testing Center

ADDRESS 7815 North White and Parker Road, Stanfield, AZ 85272-9642, U.S.A.

ok, so probably more than warm enough to get a good heat stress evaluation

 

[Stoaty]

ok, so probably more than warm enough to get a good heat stress evaluation

It's about 50 miles south of Phoenix. Currently 6 degrees warmer than Phoenix (94 vs 88 degrees F.).

 

[Train]

I'd hate to see the LEAF founder because of a close-lipped, too-late approach for addressing the problem.

Leaf sales were floundering before a few owners on an internet forum discussed battery issues possibly related to excessive temperatures.

The truth is, electric vehicles have been niche vehicles for a hundred years for the same reason they are now. Limited range.

Yes, typically people don't need all that range everyday. But there are often times where you want to go to a concert out of town, a child's tournament out of town, a get away in the mountains, go on vacation, see a friend in another town, weekend trips, and tens of thousands of other reasons.

It's not an issue of education. It's an issue of practicality, convenience, and common sense. Acting like one knows what is best for everyone is insulting and condescending. They are well aware of what they need.

But someone made a good point earlier. It is a value issue. Even if an EV and its petrol counterpart sold for the same sticker, one gets 70 miles before it has to charge for hours. The other gets 300-400 miles before refueling in less than five minutes. What's not to understand? Especially to people who only own one car.

I said this almost two years ago that once the EV enthusiasts bought theirs, it would be a tough sell. It was obvious to anyone, except perhaps, one who is reasoning based on emotion and advocacy, not plain common sense.

In the future, EV's may be developed to the point where they will make more sense. But today, a $37,000 car that gets 70 miles per charge simply doesn't make sense for most people.

 

[Nubo]

...
It's not an issue of education. It's an issue of practicality, convenience, and common sense.
...

I respectfully disagree. Back in the EV1 era (I think they were advertising 90 miles range at the time), I remember thinking such a car was ridiculous.

Now I drive a LEAF and I like it.

What changed? I don't think my needs changed much. The pro-EV arguments won me over.

It's not for everyone, but on the other hand I think my situation and needs are fairly common.

 

[Stoaty]

But someone made a good point earlier. It is a value issue.

Exactly: the value of no tail pipe emissions, and no GHG emissions when run on renewable electricity. We are just ahead of the curve.

 

[TomT]

Unfortunately, that argument is not going to work with the masses... If they are happy selling 12,000 Leafs a year in the U.S., yes; otherwise, no.

But someone made a good point earlier. It is a value issue.

Exactly: the value of no tail pipe emissions, and no GHG emissions when run on renewable electricity. We are just ahead of the curve.

 

[cwerdna]

But someone made a good point earlier. It is a value issue.

Exactly: the value of no tail pipe emissions, and no GHG emissions when run on renewable electricity. We are just ahead of the curve.

Besides many of the issues (and some misperceptions/myths) I mentioned when I first responded, the problem is that most of the car buying public doesn't value this or the EV driving experience (assuming they've even experienced it).

Or, if they do value this, it's not to the extent that they're willing to pay the Leaf's price and live w/its compromises (mainly range limitations coupled w/charge times and limited infrastructure). These compromises don't exist w/ICEVs, hybrids and PHEVs.

Heck, most of the US car buying public isn't even willing to reduce their GHG emissions and use of fossil fuels substantially by buying hybrids (http://www.hybridcars.com/news/june-2012-dashboard-47943.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false despite them not having range and infrastructure limitations. They hybrid take rate was only 2.7% and PHEV/EV take rate was only 0.26%. The other ~97% bought conventional ICEVs.

In the meanwhile, given gasoline's pricing and the availability of credit, people are still willing to buy or "buy" monstrosity class SUVs. :roll: Just take a look at http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2012/0703Deliveries.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, for instance. Last month, in the US, GM sold 1964 Escalades, 6427 Tahoes, 5136 Suburbans and 4622 Yukons. Nissan (from http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-282-in-june-161228165.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false sold 1763 Armadas and 1044 QXs. Judging by the suburban assault class vehicles in my area, most of them will be driven solo or w/minimal passengers and cargo most of the time, making me doubt the actual need for most of them.

 

[SanDust]

GM's response to Volt fires was applicable and a much much much more serious issue. they were addressing people who thought they might DIE in a Volt. not the same as having to charge more often to get somewhere...hope we can at least see that.

The Leaf battery issue is far more serious IMO. No Volt customer ever suffered from a battery fire. The whole fire story was really a creation of the media. With the Leaf, we have dozens of Leaf owners complaining about the loss of battery capacity.

Even if you don't agree that actual problems are more important than fictionalized ones, GM did what Nissan isn't doing, which is to create a comfort level among its early customers.

 

[Stoaty]

In the meanwhile, given gasoline's pricing and the availability of credit, people are still willing to buy or "buy" monstrosity class SUVs. :roll: Just take a look at http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2012/0703Deliveries.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, for instance. Last month, in the US, GM sold 1964 Escalades, 6427 Tahoes, 5136 Suburbans and 4622 Yukons. Nissan (from http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-282-in-june-161228165.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false sold 1763 Armadas and 1044 QXs. Judging by the suburban assault class vehicles in my area, most of them will be driven solo or w/minimal passengers and cargo most of the time, making me doubt the actual need for most of them.

Yes, it is stunning to see that very few actually care enough about our environment/climate change/pollution/loss of easy oil/balance of payments/support of unfriendly regimes/oil wars/etc. to make a difference by their choice of car purchase.

 

[TomT]

Which is why marketing the Leaf as strictly environmental is doomed to fail...

Yes, it is stunning to see that very few actually care enough about our environment/climate change/pollution/loss of easy oil/balance of payments/support of unfriendly regimes/oil wars/etc. to make a difference by their choice of car purchase.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

what people hear is "we are running out of oil and we need to greatly reduce our consumption ASAP" what people see is "the price of gasoline went down by another 20 cents this week..." this provides mixed messages. it shouldnt. we should be smarter than that, but i work in the car industry and i can assure you it takes so little to lull us in complacency...no...not that easy... "a sense of senselessness"

we started warning about the impact of oil years ago which was the right thing to do to wean our independence on it which is also the best ways practice.

what people dont understand is the catastrophic damage to us if we just ran the oil down to the "elite 10%" then did something about it. so we have to investigate options to see what works for us.

people are not doing that despite the fact the EVs are so right in so many ways. not 100% right, mind you (no such thing in anything anyway) but right for a HUGE majority of people

the EV market in the US alone for a 100 mile Vehicle (like the 80 mile LEAF) is estimated to be 40 million. that would keep EVERYONE busy for decades

 

[cwerdna]

In the meanwhile, given gasoline's pricing and the availability of credit, people are still willing to buy or "buy" monstrosity class SUVs.
...
Judging by the suburban assault class vehicles in my area, most of them will be driven solo or w/minimal passengers and cargo most of the time, making me doubt the actual need for most of them.

Yes, it is stunning to see that very few actually care enough about our environment/climate change/pollution/loss of easy oil/balance of payments/support of unfriendly regimes/oil wars/etc. to make a difference by their choice of car purchase.

Yeah, but as I posted in http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9354&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I think it's due to largely to ignorance/unawareness and denial.

Whenever I see battering ram of death class SUVs (esp. extended length versions like Yukon XL, Suburban, Expedition EL) running around solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers (which is true almost every time), it tells me that that it's all about me, me, me. To hell w/the consequences, assuming they're even aware of them. When I see even larger, heavier ones (e.g. Hummer H2, Ford Excursion) being driven that way, they message I get is "I don't give a rats ass about our dependence on foreign oil, AGW or the safety of other drivers".

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take what I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9354&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to really change things for EVs. Unless some of those things happen, I doubt we'll see EVs capture even 5% of the US market in the next 10 years.

I think a better goal is to get people to make vehicle choices more commensurate w/actual needs. A start would be taking steps to sharply reduce the # full-sized SUVs. Examples: outlawing them, huge taxes/penalties for buying them (vs. the gas guzzler on which all "light trucks", including SUVs are currently exempt), mandating they get 30+ mpg combined (might be possible but would really jack up their price), huge registration fees, making fuel cost double for them, rationing fuel for them, mandating tiny gas tanks so that they're forced the inconvenience of fueling often, mandatory and inconvenient extra driver's training and re-certifications, mandatory proof that there's a need, mandatory military service to protect oil supplies in volatile regions of the world, education on AGW, oil supply and oil geopolitics, simple physics when a larger heavier vehicles collides w/a smaller, lighter one, etc.

 

[sullyfahs]

"What if perhaps, just perhaps it is the product and not the marketing?"

You must not own a Leaf, if you say that. The handling is marvelous. The speed off the line is impressive. My favorite sight is looking in the rear view mirror and seeing those cars that were in the lanes beside me. They look like they are going in reverse!

Our family really loves our Leaf. We have a plug-in Prius that we use for long trips. We happily await the enhancement of battery range and more charging stations.

You know that saying, "Get a Life"? Can we say perhaps, "Get a Leaf"?

 

[TRONZ]

Well the interest in plug-ins keeps increasing. My very unscientific view of this comes from sitting in the restaurant window of IKEA Costa Mesa and simply watching people below. Each month over the past 9 months more and more people stop and check out the EVSE's and the cars plugged in. At first most people just did not notice. Now just about every person that walks by looks, gestures or takes a closer look. Last week, having three LEAFs and a PIP plugged in at the same time is nice to see and helpful.