May Deliveries! Or... May(be)?

[smkettner]

The dealer could just as easy put a drop box next to the charge station and ask for a buck to be deposited.

 

[daniel]

Right, so dealers can do whatever they want with their chargers, and restrict them to use by whoever wears their license plate frames.

Now, why is Carwings showing me these chargers on a map? What does it mean?
"There's a charger over there. You can't use it. It's for someone else."

It would be like showing Hotel icons everywhere there's a comfortable Tempurpedic mattress.. at someone's house.

It makes no sense at all. They should drop the dealerships from the POI database unless the chargers are available for everyone to use -- free or fee, I don't care. But don't plot them on my range map if I can't use them.

Agree! But considering the total mess Nissan has made of this whole roll-out, I am not surprised that CarWings is as messed up as the rest of it.

EXACTLY! A dealer makes money performing warranty service.

And this is exactly why it is stupid and short-sighted for a dealer to alienate an owner who despite buying the car somewhere else might still choose to have it serviced and buy parts/accessories from them for the life of the car. It is foolish to deny a few cents of electricity to someone who might spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the next few years in parts and service ...

You are failing to consider emotion: The dealer may be angry over losing the business. Or the dealer may not like the idea of EVs. Or the dealer may not share your business philosophy. I'm inclined to agree with you, but the dealer still has the right to do as he pleases.

The first rule of customer service is "the customer is always right" (even when they're wrong.)

Now you sound like someone from my generation. It's been a very long time since businesses considered the customer to be right. Nowadays it's all about cutting costs to the bare minimum. The Walmart generation does not care about service, only about saving pennies.

... They probably expected, as I did, that by the time a significant number of LEAFs were on the road the EV Project would have delivered on its promises to build a public charging infrastructure.

But they have not done so, and essentially the only public infrastructure today is the Nissan dealers. Without a public infrastructure the LEAF fails and Nissan's $5 billion investment is lost. (If you really wanted a car that you could confidently drive no farther than 40 miles from home wouldn't you have instead bought an NEV for $8,000?) If LEAF fails, EVs fail - again, with all that means for energy independence, the economy, national security, and the environment.

How is the EV Project funded? I suspect they have a miniscule fraction of the funding they need t meet their goals.

I disagree with you that the Leaf fails without an extensive charging infrastructure, or that EVs fail if the Leaf fails, or that the Leaf is no better than a NEV. Emerging technologies are suitable in their infancy only in limited circumstances. Adoption in those limited areas drives development which expands their utility and therefore their market, leading to wider adoption. Today, EVs are not suitable as long-distance cars for the majority of people. I predict that battery technology will make public charging obsolete: When an EV has a 400-mile or 500-mile range, overnight charging will be sufficient. We are early adopters, and need to recognize the limitations at this early stage of development, when range is limited and charging infrastructure is in its infancy.

I presently drive a Zap Xebra. Not an NEV, but it only goes 35 mph (slower uphill) and has a 40-mile range (32 miles to 80% DoD). For me, the Leaf will be a big step up, with more than double the range plus freeway capability and all the safety features of modern cars. There is NO level 2 charging infrastructure here, and won't be for quite some time, but the Leviton EVSE will be portable, and the larger model will plug into an RV circuit, so I'd anticipate being able to plug in at an RV park if necessary. But basically, I never drive more than 75 miles in a day unless I'm on a road trip into country where there won't be public charging within a decade, if then. So the Leaf will work fine for me even without public charging. I just need to keep the stinker for road trips. Or rent a car.

So here's what I think Nissan should do:

Lean heavily but quietly on DOE and the EV Project to get moving, and if that doesn't succeed, do it loudly.

Increase the price of LEAF by some amount calculated adequate to fund a pro rata portion of Nissan dealer charging, capital and electricity costs. For cars already sold, put that amount of money into the pot from the corporate account.

Pay this money to dealers for each charging session from a LEAF driver who bought his car from another dealer.

Get all dealers together (in person, web, phone, or email) to agree on a uniform set of charging rules, possibly something along the lines of Stevens Creek Nissan, with 24/7 access strongly preferred.

All dealers who agree to the uniform rules get listed in the directory, get payments for "foreign" charging, and get favorable treatment in their LEAF allocations.

All dealers who do not agree do not get listed in the directory, do not get any payments, and have their LEAF allocations reduced slowly, month by month, until finally their LEAF certification is revoked.

Nissan has no leverage with the DOE. The oil companies, who want to block EV adoption, have far more influence.

Nissan has to keep the price of the Leaf affordable for ordinary people.

Getting dealers to agree on charging rules, is an excellent idea, but Nissan will not try to force them, because the Leaf is too small a part of their business. And Nissan will not revoke a dealer's Leaf certification because they want wider, not narrower availability.

Again, as dlich18 said, it may be good business for dealers to offer free charging to anyone, but nobody is entitled to it. And as more Leafs hit the roads, dealers in heavily-trafficked areas may find that offering free charging to all could require significant expense to install enough chargers. Remember that level 3 chargers are extremely expensive (one reason for the slow pace of infrastructure development), and level 2 takes 8 hours to deliver a full charge. Do you really think anyone is entitled to spend 8 hours on a dealer's charger?

 

[daniel]

The dealer could just as easy put a drop box next to the charge station and ask for a buck to be deposited.

And will that make up for the dealer being unable to offer that charger to his own customers? How many chargers, at several thousand dollars a pop, will dealers have to install in order to offer public charging and still have sufficient capacity for their own use?

Public charging is a business in itself, which dealers may or may not want to invest in. It would make more sense to encourage gas stations to install pay chargers. Delivering fuel is already their business model.

 

[smkettner]

The dealer could just as easy put a drop box next to the charge station and ask for a buck to be deposited.

And will that make up for the dealer being unable to offer that charger to his own customers? How many chargers, at several thousand dollars a pop, will dealers have to install in order to offer public charging and still have sufficient capacity for their own use?

Public charging is a business in itself, which dealers may or may not want to invest in. It would make more sense to encourage gas stations to install pay chargers. Delivering fuel is already their business model.

I understand what you are saying. There is no reason to expect a dealer to expand this charging business model mostly because they need the space for inventory. However until it actually becomes a problem I think it would be in their best interest to welcome all EVs. I agree charging should be elsewhere and that just does not exist yet. The truth is I think most people will avoid the dealer for charging as soon as ANYTHING else is available. The dealer is the obsolute last resort. Noone just hangs out at a car dealership unless you need to do business. And charging is just not going to grow to be part of their business. The dealer could also redirect the person to the nearest public charger as soon as it is installed.

With all the resistance you would think out of town Leafs were lined up ten deep to connect to the charger. :roll:

 

[davewill]

This debate is about the dealer offering a free service. What makes one entitled to a free service from a vendor that the consumer has chosen not to patronize?

You mean besides Nissan using the fact that all LEAF dealers have EVSEs as a huge sales tool for the LEAF? Nissan created this problem by advertising the dealers as charge infrastructure, but not arranging for this to be true in FACT. At this point, only Nissan can clean up the mess.

Anyway, I think bad publicity here is an entirely appropriate consequence to a dealer's decision to NOT provide this service. After all, we don't have to say nice things about them any more than they have to provide charging. It certainly isn't going to entice me to buy there!!!

 

[dlich18]

You mean besides Nissan using the fact that all LEAF dealers have EVSEs as a huge sales tool for the LEAF? Nissan created this problem by advertising the dealers as charge infrastructure, but not arranging for this to be true in FACT. At this point, only Nissan can clean up the mess.

I completely agree with you on this. Nissan has offered the charging infrastructure as a solution to "range anxiety". Nissan cannot solve this marketing problem by making its independent dealers indentured servants, so Nissan needs to address this. Nevertheless, under the current circumstances, whether or not a dealer offers its chargers is its own marketing decision, and we should be appreciative of those who do rather than expecting they all will based upon some right we possess.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Anyway, I think bad publicity here is an entirely appropriate consequence to a dealer's decision to NOT provide this service. After all, we don't have to say nice things about them any more than they have to provide charging. It certainly isn't going to entice me to buy there!!!

Yup! They have the right to set their charging policy and we have the right to have an opinion about that and express / publish that opinion where we see fit.

As members of the community trying to support the widespread adoption of EVs ans each other, we also have the responsibility, as much as we care to have, to ferret out the charging policies for each charging location and get them accurately published in the various charging directories.

As customers of the Nissan LEAF, we also can (should) provide feedback to CarWings / Nissan that only chargers available to any LEAF owner despite where they purchased their LEAF should appear in CarWings, or they should enhance CarWings to display charge stations restricted to LEAFs sold at this Dealer only to pnly show up in the CarWings of vehicles with VINs sold at that dealership!

Charging at the dealership where you purchased your LEAF will be for most purchasers, one the less useful locations. It's the exchange between dealers to allow charging for LEAFs, regardless of the LEAF was purchased that enables more usage of EVs. My Nissan Dealer is 3 miles from my house, I'll NEVER NEED to charge their. Though I may charge their because I can, it's cool, and may show others that EVs are a real vehicle that may fit your needs!

Ps. anyone have any links handy to Nissan's promotion of the Dealers as charging locations / infrastructure for the LEAF?

 

[LEAFfan]

Do you really think anyone is entitled to spend 8 hours on a dealer's charger?

That's just ridiculous reasoning. Do you really believe that a driver will spend 8 hours at a dealership getting a full charge if they are empty? Absolutely not! You should have read what you had written before you posted it and you would have seen how utterly ridiculous your argument is. They will charge just long enough to make it home. Geesh!

 

[smkettner]

So what happens if the dealer unplugs some transient to charge a customer car.
If the dealer reconnects the transient's car when the customer is done will charging continue?

 

[davewill]

So what happens if the dealer unplugs some transient to charge a customer car.
If the dealer reconnects the transient's car when the customer is done will charging continue?

Not if the timer override button was used to start charging. If you're worried about this, you have to turn off the timer, not just use the override button.

 

[ttweed]

It is foolish to deny a few cents of electricity to someone who might spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the next few years in parts and service (as well as possibly winning them over for their next vehicle purchase) if they were received pleasantly and accommodated graciously. TT

I think this mixes up two issues. 1) Whether or not it is good business for a dealer to deny a free customer service to prospective patrons, and 2) whether or not a consumer is entitled to that free service just because he/she owns a Leaf.

I don't think anyone has said that we are entitled to anything. Certainly the OP did not inquire if he could regularly charge for free at their dealership, he was trying to arrange a brief charge to make it home in a special circumstance, and once he was refused, made alternate arrangements. That doesn't sound like a sense of "entitlement" to me. I think you're the one who is "mixing things up" bringing this entitlement issue into the argument.

TT

 

[smkettner]

Now that seems pretty straight forward. Turn off the timer and the dealer can keep his customers as a priority.
These simple things in life get to be such a territorial fight for no reason. Just be honest and plug the other car back in already.
Why is it so hard to accomodate any small request now days?

I can just see them now watching you walk away for a minute and they come out and unplug you. Then they laugh all day as you come back with no charging. They yuk it up again and just say the customers have priority and apparently forgot to put the plug back in. :roll: :x

 

[ttweed]

You are failing to consider emotion: The dealer may be angry over losing the business.

Making decisions colored by anger or resentment is just as poor and self-destructive a practice in the corporate world as it is in our private lives. If that is indeed the case, someone further up the corporate totem pole with a cooler head needs to intervene before the business is driven into a ditch.

The Walmart generation does not care about service, only about saving pennies.

I can't believe this is true. Even in the retail sector, if abused sufficiently, anyone will walk away from a transaction, no matter how much money they think they are going to save. There is always someone else who will sell it for just a little bit more, without treating the customer poorly, and at some point, the customer will say "this just isn't worth it" and walk away. In the service sector, this axiom is definitely not dead yet.

How is the EV Project funded? I suspect they have a miniscule fraction of the funding they need t meet their goals.

You can answer your own question by reading all about it here: http://www.theevproject.com/
They have sufficient funds to cover the initial areas, but there is no doubt they will need continued support to establish a nationwide charging network, along with the growth of the "pay-to-charge" companies that are springing up. Ecotality put out a press release yesterday saying that the first 1,000 home chargers have been installed. Their tacit admission that they are behind the curve in installing public stations was contained in the well-spun statement that "Now that EVs have begun to make good penetration in the Project markets, we have ramped up public and commercial installations to build out the Blink Network so EV users can extend range and have confidence that they will have a place to plug in.” It is precisely due to their tardiness that Nissan needs to make an extraordinary effort in the interim to support the early adopters, IMHO.

I predict that battery technology will make public charging obsolete: When an EV has a 400-mile or 500-mile range, overnight charging will be sufficient.

Exactly when do you think this will happen? Certainly not before there are hundreds of thousands of EVs already in service with lesser range. Even those who can afford the first 500-mile range EVs will simply expand their horizons and start making cross-country trips that will still require public infrastructure.

We are early adopters, and need to recognize the limitations at this early stage of development, when range is limited and charging infrastructure is in its infancy.

Which is exactly why Nissan needs to do everything possible to get over the initial "hump" of the lack of infrastructure.

I never drive more than 75 miles in a day...So the Leaf will work fine for me even without public charging.

Do you not see the contradiction of this statement with the following?

Do you really think anyone is entitled to spend 8 hours on a dealer's charger?

Why do you anticipate that dealers are going to be inundated with eager, free-loading EV'ers demanding free electricity when you would never need to do it yourself? Won't most owners plan as well as you? Won't they most always charge at home also? I know I will. We are talking about the few times when someone is "caught out" under special circumstances. There is no reason that dealers should not support all Nissan customers under such circumstances. They can easily manage what will probably be a very small demand for a relatively short period of time by putting into place some reasonable policies that can provide for everyone's legitimate needs and weed out those who would abuse the privilege. The "shotgun approach" of "if you didn't buy it here, don't charge here" is the easy but ultimately destructive way out. It is not a big problem yet--why make it into one when it doesn't exist? It's an overreaction to a non-existent threat.

And as more Leafs hit the roads, dealers in heavily-trafficked areas may find that offering free charging to all could require significant expense to install enough chargers.

Once again, it doesn't have to be "free," just available as a last resort, at a reasonable cost. How expensive is it for Nissan to have to get a tow truck out to help an owner get home when they run out of juice?

Remember that level 3 chargers are extremely expensive (one reason for the slow pace of infrastructure development).

The CEO for one of the pay-to-charge players, EVOASIS, told me 9 months ago they were having L3 EVSEs built in China for less than $6000. They will come.

TT

 

[daniel]

I think people should realize that there is a difference between dealers "exchanging" charging privileges for their customers when those customers have to drive outside their area, and dealers being asked to offer charging to a person who has chosen to snub the local dealer and drive outside the region to buy from a discount dealer. In such a case, the local dealer has no incentive to sell or support the Leaf at all. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you choose a discount store, or in this case a dealer too far away to provide service to you, you should not expect service from the local store you snubbed.

Nissan screwed up in more ways than I can count. Showing the location on CarWings of chargers that are not open to the public, is one of many. Maybe Nissan should install, at its own expense, chargers at dealerships for the public, and pay those dealerships rent for the parking slots that will be used by cars charging at those chargers.

Public charging is problematic anyway until there are enough charging slots that drivers can count on finding one available. This, and the absence of L2 chargers (forget about L3!) in Spokane, is why I regard my EV as being limited to the range I can drive out and back from home on a charge. This is an infant technology, and this is one of the limits I accept when I adopt it. (As well as the 35-mph top speed I have lived with for the past 4 years, when the Zap Xebra was the only way for me to drive electric.)

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Nissan did market the dealer network as providing charger services during the drive tour.. "And every dealership will be equipped with chargers".

It also seems to be the default towtruck destination for Nissan, so I don't see how the same dealer would refuse a tow-truck drop off.

All in all, this is just a mess. Between EV Project failing their mission and keeping the change, and Nissan's dealer network making up policy as they go, it's feeling more and more like a 50-mile leash to home.

 

[scharlj]

Just a quick reminder that this thread IS about people who are getting (or got) their cars in May.....

This thread is NOT about dealerships offering, or not offering free charging. I think it's high time the discussion gets a thread of its own.

 

[smkettner]

Well then back on track.

No longer a Maybe but an actual May delivery here. Scheduled to pick my Leaf tomorrow morning at Fontana Nissan

It has been a long dark tunnel, but I see the light and the exit from this initial part of the journey

 

[sdbmania]

Well then back on track.

No longer a Maybe but an actual May delivery here. Scheduled to pick my Leaf tomorrow morning at Fontana Nissan

It has been a long dark tunnel, but I see the light and the exit from this initial part of the journey

Grats! I enjoyed my time at the dealership. It's still seems like a dream, but the proof of reality is in my garage.

It was definitely worth the wait!

 

[LEAFfan]

It looks like I may have to move to the 'June Deliveries' thread. I was told my car was Invoiced today so that probably means it was loaded on the train to Portland. The minimum time to a WA dealer, according to an Edmonds dealer is 12 days (could be 14), and then I have to add 2-5 days more for delivery to my home. That puts it between May 30 and June 4.

 

[daniel]

Just a quick reminder that this thread IS about people who are getting (or got) their cars in May.....

This thread is NOT about dealerships offering, or not offering free charging. I think it's high time the discussion gets a thread of its own.

You are right. And like LEAFfan, I may have to move to the June thread. I was told my car would leave port this week (I won't believe it until I see it!) and that it should take another week to arrive, which could still be this month. But my dashboard says Week of June 6. My dealer says he usually gets the invoice a couple of days before the car arrives, but if mine arrives at the same time as others, I don't know whose would get prepped first or how long that takes.

The dashboards are notoriously worthless as a real estimate of delivery date, so it could still be this month, but since my car has evaporated twice before, it could happen again and be rescheduled for winter. (In April my dealer told me my car was in Portland and would arrive a week later! Now it's a different VIN and in LB awaiting shipping.)