National charge network

[evguy5]

The Tesla super charger network is a great idea and is going to be awesome for them but the problem is that it only supports Tesla cars. We need to have a national network that supports all the rest of the electric vehicles out there like the Leaf, Spark, and plug in vehicles like the Volt and Prius. Level 2 charging is great for in the city but doesn't really work for out of city or out of state travel. For example, I can't drive 80 miles to Austin from San Antonio without a quick charger. There is a level 2 charger at Nissan in San Marcos but that would mean that I would have to sit at a dealership for 2-4 hours while my car rechargers just to complete the 80 mile drive. I would much prefer to have a charger that rechargers the car in 20 - 30 minutes. I think we need something like this:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/create-fast-charging-network-wide-scale-adoption-electric-vehicles/zf0nNH7b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you support the creation of such a system or at least want to start a discuss about it please sign it. I want to get to at least 150 signatures so that it goes public. I would appreciate your help in getting that done.

 

[evguy5]

So my petition hasn't garnered as much support as I was hoping or rather not as quickly as I would have thought.

I'm just curious as to the reasons. If you don't mind, would you post reasons why you are for or against it.

 

[KeiJidosha]

...We need to have a national network that supports all the rest of the electric vehicles out there like the Leaf, Spark, and plug in vehicles like the Volt and Prius...

...So my petition hasn't garnered as much support as I was hoping or rather not as quickly as I would have thought. I'm just curious as to the reasons...

A noble cause. But what you get is Etec/ECOtality

 

[Deleted member 8423]

Maybe most folks recognize that online petitions are pointless?

It hasn't even been up for 48hrs yet, give it time (maybe by getting some discussion going in this thread so people see it; I know I missed this post originally).

This is an idea that has some merits and sounds like a good idea, which means government can't get involved.

And the existence of the Supercharger network is exactly the reason why the government won't get involved.

 

[evguy5]

...We need to have a national network that supports all the rest of the electric vehicles out there like the Leaf, Spark, and plug in vehicles like the Volt and Prius...

...So my petition hasn't garnered as much support as I was hoping or rather not as quickly as I would have thought. I'm just curious as to the reasons...

A noble cause. But what you get is Etec/ECOtality

KeiJidosha,

Thank you for responding to my post. Perhaps I am just missing it but I am not sure what the link is referencing. Could you please explain.

 

[evguy5]

Maybe most folks recognize that online petitions are pointless?

It hasn't even been up for 48hrs yet, give it time (maybe by getting some discussion going in this thread so people see it; I know I missed this post originally).

This is an idea that has some merits and sounds like a good idea, which means government can't get involved.

And the existence of the Supercharger network is exactly the reason why the government won't get involved.

ITestStuff,

I'm wouldn't call them pointless. They can help to inform others about the thoughts and desires of a group of people. If this petition was to gather a lot of support from the EV community companies like Chargepoint and others would realize that there is a larger market out there for electric vehicles. In turn they would install more chargers across the US which would allow people drive further and help promote adoption. Not to mention put people to work installing and maintaining them. The way I look at is you might as well try

Could you please clarify what you mean by the government not being able to get involved because of the supercharger network? Is that a reference to private industry vs government? The government doesn't have to foot the entire bill to help get a charger network going but they could assist either through loans, tax breaks etc.

 

[smkettner]

This is one area it is probably better to keep the government out.
I would first like to see congress authorize individual government locations authority to install charging stations for employees including military.

 

[evguy5]

This is one area it is probably better to keep the government out.
I would first like to see congress authorize individual government locations authority to install charging stations for employees including military.

I think that would be a good step. Again, I don't think that the government should run the network but I do think they can provide some incentives to get things moving. EV drivers need have access to chargers consistency.

As an example of this, the 120 chargers that were installed here in San Antonio came from Feds.

My main point is that we need quick chargers to be able to travel more freely. It's great that cities have started investing in level 2 chargers but we need to have more quick chargers so that a car can be charged 80% of the way up in 20 minutes or so. That makes traveling outside of the city possible in addition to getting people back on the road more quickly in town as well. I'm not saying that my idea is the best solution by any means I am just trying to promote one solution.

 

[braineo]

Long distance travel in a commuter car doesn't make sense when the car can only go 50 miles after each L3 charging session.

Use your commuter gas savings to rent a Tesla for long distance driving.

 

[babynuke]

Petition signed to show support for a charging infrastructure.
I prefer private enterprise to run it.
Ty

 

[Randy]

The simple fact is that there isn't a lot of money to be made on a charging network. Note how many drivers complain about $1 per hour for L2 or $5 per session for DC Fast Charging. Even at those prices that some drivers complain are "Highway robbery", it isn't enough money to operate a network of charging equipment (much less pay for any equipment or installations if the government grant money wasn't available in the case of ECOtality).

The only way right now for a charging network to be successful is to have it subsidized....either by government through taxes, by utilities through rates to all customers, or by private companies like Tesla who are hoping to recoup with expensive car sales.

The simple economics of private enterprise paying for stations, paying to install them, paying to run them, and paying for employees to support them will never work at $1 per hour of use...It may be marginally successful with a "gym membership" type of model at so many $ per month for access to use, but even that model needs lots of subscribers to make it work...

 

[kovalb]

According to the CHAdeMO association here are currently 160 CHAdeMO DC-FC stations in the USA. http://www.chademo.com/
According to Tesla there should be 27 supercharger stations by now. http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Both continue to ramp up. I do not see any issue here.

 

[evguy5]

Long distance travel in a commuter car doesn't make sense when the car can only go 50 miles after each L3 charging session.

Use your commuter gas savings to rent a Tesla for long distance driving.

Braineo,

So I would say a couple of things about that. One,yes currently the limitation on vehicles like the Leaf is that you can only go 50 miles after recharge but that is only a current limitation. The technology is going to get better which means the range of all of the vehicles will increase. So in a few years perhaps the recharge range after a fill up from quick charger will go from 50 miles to 100 or 200. Perhaps it would take a bit longer to fill up unless they find a way to get the energy to transfer faster to the battery.

For long distance travel there certainty is a case to be made to rent a car that either is something similar to a Tesla or perhaps a Volt, prius or whatever.

There are two things that the L3 chargers can be used for though, in and town and out. So If I wanted to go to Austin for example from San Antonio I could stop for 20 minutes at Starbucks in San Marcos and get a cup off coffee and be on my way. I don't think that would be that impractical. The other thing it could be used for is in town. I've mentioned before that the L2 charger and great when you have longer times to wait around such as grabbing lunch / dinner or shopping or overnight charging. However, that doesn't work so well when you only have a short time to recharge such as during the work day. Not everyone has work charging and some people have to drive around the city for work.

Just a few thoughts on it. Let me know what you think

 

[evguy5]

Petition signed to show support for a charging infrastructure.
I prefer private enterprise to run it.
Ty

I prefer private enterprise to run it as well. I don't want the government to run in by any means but I would like them to lend (key word being lend) some money to help get some projects moving. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a political discussion because I really don't want that. Just want to keep to EVs and how promote and charge them.

Thank you for signing the petition. I really appreciate it. It's got 18 signatures now so it's going up slowly.

 

[evguy5]

The simple fact is that there isn't a lot of money to be made on a charging network. Note how many drivers complain about $1 per hour for L2 or $5 per session for DC Fast Charging. Even at those prices that some drivers complain are "Highway robbery", it isn't enough money to operate a network of charging equipment (much less pay for any equipment or installations if the government grant money wasn't available in the case of ECOtality).

The only way right now for a charging network to be successful is to have it subsidized....either by government through taxes, by utilities through rates to all customers, or by private companies like Tesla who are hoping to recoup with expensive car sales.

The simple economics of private enterprise paying for stations, paying to install them, paying to run them, and paying for employees to support them will never work at $1 per hour of use...It may be marginally successful with a "gym membership" type of model at so many $ per month for access to use, but even that model needs lots of subscribers to make it work...

So I was looking over this site: http://www.carcharging.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and found a video conducted with the fonder of the company and seems to think there is money in it. (just found this so I haven't looked into the company that much) The nice thing about this company is that they pay for the cost of the install and maintain so smaller companies that want to install chargers don't have to manage it.

A $1.00 per hour is nothing when you consider what you are getting and how much it would cost you to fill up your car at $3.50 a gallon. Also, you aren't supposed to be living off the chargers you are supposed to charge at home or at least thats the idea. The public chargers are there for when you want to top up or are in an emergency situation. Here in San Antonio, CPS did an interesting thing they allowed for a flat rate of charging. Looks like it's just a pilot program but it's an interesting idea: https://secure.cpsenergy.com/ElecVehicle/subscription.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think companies need to find a way to attract customers aside from simply charging. Look at gas stations that are everywhere now. Yes you fill up your car but you also go inside to purchase goods such as coffee, soda, etc. This is where current companies should be given incentives to install chargers at their business locations along the interstate or in town. If a customer has to wait 20 - 30 minutes to refill their car they are going to just want to site there. They would much prefer to grab a bite to eat, have a cup of coffee or go do some shopping.

I think there is money to be made with charging though depending upon the cost of the energy and what you can charge. if there wasn't then companies like chargepoint would be having trouble I'd imagine. yes they get the money to install the equipment but they also host it as well so that the business doesn't have to do anything. They wouldn't do that if they didn't think there was a long term viable business there.

 

[evguy5]

According to the CHAdeMO association here are currently 160 CHAdeMO DC-FC stations in the USA. http://www.chademo.com/
According to Tesla there should be 27 supercharger stations by now. http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

Both continue to ramp up. I do not see any issue here.

That's a great start but there are also entire states states that don't have any L3 chargers at all or big cities in states that don't have any. This means that people can't drive to other cities without risking running out of energy or having to wait a long time to recharge. I know that it will happen eventually but I am just trying to rase awareness about the need and desire for them so that maybe it will happen a bit faster. As i've said before, it can't hurt to try right?

The program for Tesla is great but the problem with that is that it only works for Tesla cars. Most people that have EVs or are thinking about wanting to get an EV can't afford or simply do not want a Tesla. If Tesla was to add in a quick charger for other vehicles then that would be great but as it stands right now they will only charge their vehicles.

 

[Zythryn]

Tesla has indicated they are willing to license the technology to other companies.
I believe this is the most effective way for other companies to enable their cars.

No government involvement and a more elegant charging system.

 

[evguy5]

Tesla has indicated they are willing to license the technology to other companies.
I believe this is the most effective way for other companies to enable their cars.

No government involvement and a more elegant charging system.

I love the Tesla superchargers but I see a couple of issues with this technology for everyone else.

1. it realizes on another company to license the technology and it requires that all the other companies purchase it.

2. the CHAdeMO has already been adopted by the major car brands so why would they go and change? (2,700 already installed through out the world)

 

[hyperlexis]

Petition signed to show support for a charging infrastructure.
I prefer private enterprise to run it.
Ty

I prefer private enterprise to run it as well. I don't want the government to run in by any means but I would like them to lend (key word being lend) some money to help get some projects moving. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a political discussion because I really don't want that. Just want to keep to EVs and how promote and charge them.

Thank you for signing the petition. I really appreciate it. It's got 18 signatures now so it's going up slowly.

Yeah well let me tell you how well 'private enterprise' is running such things. Like sh-t they are, here in Chicago! Carcharging.com (which just bought out another 'private enterprise' called 350green that stole millions in tax dollars and failed to build half the chargers they were supposed to....) cant get the few dozen L3 chargers in Illinois to even work -- Carcharging can't legally issue any new 'charjit" cards for their existing L3s -- so NO new Leaf/iMiev CHADEMO drivers can use them. Only people with cards from months and months ago. Totally deadlocked, and no hope on the horizon until lawsuits are decided, no one knows when. Tell that to people in cities who must have public chargers, or those who use the L3s on the tollways to get to work.

It would have been far far better for the government to install these public L3s for use than rely on middlemen shilling for private enterprise. The profit margin is so low and the usage for high cost, privately run chargers is very low, so that there is very little point for private companies to install them but for getting huge tax credits. So why bother paying a middleman at all?

If town hall can install a public drinking fountain, or a road, or a light pole, they can install a few $5,000 L3 chargers around town, so as to better the environment for everyone, by increasing the use of EVs. By the same right, the federal government, could electrify the Eisenhower freeway systems, with free L3 chargers at each rest stop. Again, for the public good of lowering pollution.

The petroleum companies created the US's network of gas stations when the automobile was born. They built their own filling stations. Perhaps it's time for electricity providers and/or the cities and states (or feds) that regulate them, to do the same for their product, by installing these chargers all over the country. Because right now the public charging network, outside some areas on the West Coast, as now reliant on 'private enterprise' middlemen, sucks.

 

[hyperlexis]

Petition signed to show support for a charging infrastructure.
I prefer private enterprise to run it.
Ty

I prefer private enterprise to run it as well. I don't want the government to run in by any means but I would like them to lend (key word being lend) some money to help get some projects moving. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a political discussion because I really don't want that. Just want to keep to EVs and how promote and charge them.

Thank you for signing the petition. I really appreciate it. It's got 18 signatures now so it's going up slowly.

Yeah well let me tell you how well 'private enterprise' is running such things. Like sh-t they are, here in Chicago! Carcharging.com (which just bought out another 'private enterprise' called 350green that stole millions in tax dollars and failed to build half the chargers they were supposed to....) cant get the few dozen L3 chargers in Illinois to even work -- Carcharging can't legally issue any new 'charjit" cards for their existing L3s -- so NO new Leaf/iMiev CHADEMO drivers can use them. Only people with cards from months and months ago. Totally deadlocked, and no hope on the horizon until lawsuits are decided, no one knows when. Tell that to people in cities who must have public chargers, or those who use the L3s on the tollways to get to work.

It would have been far far better for the government to install these public L3s for use than rely on middlemen shilling for private enterprise. The profit margin is so low and the usage for high cost, privately run chargers is very low, so that there is very little point for private companies to install them but for getting huge tax credits. So why bother paying a middleman at all?

If town hall can install a public drinking fountain, or a road, or a light pole, they can install a few $5,000 L3 chargers around town, so as to better the environment for everyone, by increasing the use of EVs. By the same right, the federal government, could electrify the Eisenhower freeway systems, with free L3 chargers at each rest stop. Again, for the public good of lowering pollution.

The petroleum companies created the US's network of gas stations when the automobile was born. They built their own filling stations. Perhaps it's time for electricity providers and/or the cities and states (or feds) that regulate them, to do the same for their product, by installing these chargers all over the country. Because right now the public charging network, outside some areas on the West Coast, as now reliant on 'private enterprise' middlemen, sucks.


Otherwise, honestly whats the point? Go buy a Prius C. It puts out near as much CO2 as an EV, has unlimted range, and doesn't require begging 'private enterprise' for a charging station every 50 miles. And if someone wants to charge me $5 for the equivalent of 1 gallon of gas (used in a Prius) for a 20 minute L3 charge, it doesn't save much of anything, -- unless you are lucky enough to have a garage with your own plug at home and never travel more than 50 miles a day....

The point is to make EVs better and more acceptable. The government (or Nissan itself) needs to step in a do something directly, because private enterprise' has proven itself unable or in many cases unwilling to step up to the plate.