New battery info

[Gonewild]

Mark Perry said this..


Nissan knows that the Leaf's batteries will degrade over time, which is why the warranty says that, after the eight years, drivers should expect about a 70 percent performance level compared to the original pack. Perry also said that, while unlikely, anyone who fast charges (at 440V) two or three times a day, something the Leaf manual will warn against, will see a quicker degradation.
The warranty is not related to battery capacity. The warranty is related to motor output. So if the battery has degraded to a point where the motor can't get enough power from the battery, then it's a warrantable event. But if someone abuses the battery – parks it outside in 140 degrees and all that - and they have 60 percent capacity after eight years, that's on them. They abused it.
Perry says that fast-charging your Leaf multiple times a day will not be considered abuse.

 

[LEAFer]

My emphasis is not what Gonewild has highlighted, but this ...

Mark Perry said this..


Nissan knows that the Leaf's batteries will degrade over time, which is why the warranty says that, after the eight years, drivers should expect about a 70 percent performance level compared to the original pack. Perry also said that, while unlikely, anyone who fast charges (at 440V) two or three times a day, something the Leaf manual will warn against, will see a quicker degradation.
The warranty is not related to battery capacity. The warranty is related to motor output. So if the battery has degraded to a point where the motor can't get enough power from the battery, then it's a warrantable event. But if someone abuses the battery – parks it outside in 140 degrees and all that - and they have 60 percent capacity after eight years, that's on them. They abused it.
Perry says that fast-charging your Leaf multiple times a day will not be considered abuse.

"How will the range be affected?", would be the more important concern to me. And if the range is BELOW the expected range, then I would consider THAT to be a warrantable event; but that's not what the quoted passage implies.

 

[garygid]

So, if the battery capacity has degraded to 10% after 2 years,
there is no warranty coverage?

If that is so, that might be a real show stopper for me.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm amazed at many peoples' mentality towards the range estimates and battery degradation towards both the Leaf and the Volt. People keep complaining that the range varies too much, or complaining that all of these different things (driving style, weather, etc) affect the range, or that the battery pack degrades after several years.

What you all have to remember is what the EPA gas mileage estimates are like in a ICE vehicle. Everyone expects that to vary, some cars can get over their estimate, some never come close, and as a car gets older and older you get worse mpg (generally).

Why are all of you holding EVs (and almost-evs) to significantly higher standards when it comes to the same types of estimates? Especially first-generation EVs?

 

[mynameisjim]

Why are all of you holding EVs (and almost-evs) to significantly higher standards when it comes to the same types of estimates? Especially first-generation EVs?

Because they are relatively new and unknown and it's scary to dump half a years salary into something if the manufacturer isn't willing to stand behind it.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm sure one could get 80Kw out of a pack with 50% capacity, if that is what the warranty is based on then it's almost meaningless. Very clever.

 

[evnow]

Why are all of you holding EVs (and almost-evs) to significantly higher standards when it comes to the same types of estimates? Especially first-generation EVs?

Very well put.

 

[Azat]

I'm amazed at many peoples' mentality towards the range estimates and battery degradation towards both the Leaf and the Volt. People keep complaining that the range varies too much, or complaining that all of these different things (driving style, weather, etc) affect the range, or that the battery pack degrades after several years.

What you all have to remember is what the EPA gas mileage estimates are like in a ICE vehicle. Everyone expects that to vary, some cars can get over their estimate, some never come close, and as a car gets older and older you get worse mpg (generally).

Why are all of you holding EVs (and almost-evs) to significantly higher standards when it comes to the same types of estimates? Especially first-generation EVs?

Excellent point. Well said.

 

[DeaneG]

Why are all of you holding EVs (and almost-evs) to significantly higher standards when it comes to the same types of estimates? Especially first-generation EVs?

It gives people something to fret over/go trolling with.

 

[palmermd]

I'm sure one could get 80Kw out of a pack with 50% capacity, if that is what the warranty is based on then it's almost meaningless. Very clever.

Agreed, you generally will lose capacity faster than power (my laptop batteries have no problem running my laptop for 5 minutes right now vs 3 hours when new). If they are only putting a warranty on the power of the pack and not the capacity, then this might be a stopper for me, or at least something to seriously think about.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I'm sure one could get 80Kw out of a pack with 50% capacity, if that is what the warranty is based on then it's almost meaningless. Very clever.

Agreed, you generally will lose capacity faster than power (my laptop batteries have no problem running my laptop for 5 minutes right now vs 3 hours when new). If they are only putting a warranty on the power of the pack and not the capacity, then this might be a stopper for me, or at least something to seriously think about.

Nothing like going 90 at 90kw for 5 minutes after three years.

 

[garygid]

I do not se people compalining about driving style or road conditions
affecting range. But, if the gas tank of your ICS car shrank from
15 gallons to 3 gallons after 2 years, ... you would want a new gas tank.
even though the car would still go 120 miles per hour, or feed gas at
one ounce per minute to the engine. Right?

If there is no warranty whatsoever on battery capacity, that is really bad news.

 

[cdub]

I think people are getting all worked up about nothing.

I'm sure if the battery is at 50% after after 8 years or whatever then it wil be able to be replaced... But 70% is to be expected.

 

[palmermd]

I think people are getting all worked up about nothing.

I'm sure if the battery is at 50% after after 8 years or whatever then it wil be able to be replaced... But 70% is to be expected.

70% of what? We all assumed it was 70% of the capacity, but in the quote from Mark Webber he said it was not 70% of capacity, but 70% of power output. The quote could be wrong, and I would expect it is, but the quote as written is very unnerving.

The warranty is not related to battery capacity. The warranty is related to motor output. So if the battery has degraded to a point where the motor can't get enough power from the battery, then it's a warrantable event.

 

[evnow]

Anyone nervous about the battery should lease. Simple.

 

[Frank]

Mark Perry said this..


Nissan knows that the Leaf's batteries will degrade over time, which is why the warranty says that, after the eight years, drivers should expect about a 70 percent performance level compared to the original pack. Perry also said that, while unlikely, anyone who fast charges (at 440V) two or three times a day, something the Leaf manual will warn against, will see a quicker degradation.
The warranty is not related to battery capacity. The warranty is related to motor output. So if the battery has degraded to a point where the motor can't get enough power from the battery, then it's a warrantable event. But if someone abuses the battery – parks it outside in 140 degrees and all that - and they have 60 percent capacity after eight years, that's on them. They abused it.
Perry says that fast-charging your Leaf multiple times a day will not be considered abuse.

Since no one else asked this, I will. Could you provide the source for the Mark Perry statement about the battery warranty (or lack of a battery warranty)?

 

[evnow]

Since no one else asked this, I will. Could you provide the source for the Mark Perry statement about the battery warranty (or lack of a battery warranty)?

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/22/2011-nissan-leaf-review-drive-second/

Since most of us read ABG, I guess noone asked.

 

[Jay]

I do not se people compalining about driving style or road conditions
affecting range. But, if the gas tank of your ICS car shrank from
15 gallons to 3 gallons after 2 years, ... you would want a new gas tank.
even though the car would still go 120 miles per hour, or feed gas at
one ounce per minute to the engine. Right?

If there is no warranty whatsoever on battery capacity, that is really bad news.

This story definitely needs some clarification. I am working to run down some Nissan suit-wearing types at the moment, but because it is the weekend, it is a little tricky. They are either AWOL, or possible busy doing tour promos. I hope to be able to get some comment soon because it needs to be addressed. Soon as I do, I will put up a story on it/link it here.

/crosses fingers it will be a denial

 

[garygid]

First, the "story" that this "warranty" description comes from is far from "official", and does contain other significant errors. So, until the real warranty is published, we should not get TOO worried. However, IF this was an accurate description of the warranty:

Since one could draw the power needed to run the car, even accelerate, for a few minutes from a very small battery (range 5 miles), the simple "power-draw" (no "capacity" or range) warranty is just not a very useful or practical warranty.

Relatively easy to test, the "power" warranty would allow a dealer to fully charge, test for a minute, say it passes, and barely leave you enough usable energy in the pack to drive off the lot.

However, to be fair, some types of battery-cell "failures" (really, weaknesses) might cause symptoms of limited-power (drives at lower speeds, and very little acceleration).

However, there are most likely other battery cell "weaknesses" that manifest themselves more as range (charge capacity) reductions, not power limitations.

Nissan, however, knows the "failure" modes of its propritary cells, and we can only guess.

But, I am certainly (and hugely) uncomfortable with NO warranty on battery capacity, just as I would be if my gas tank's capacity could "shrink" to unusable levels and not be covered.

I can deal with having a 70-mile EV in 8 years, after buying a 100-mile EV initially, though I am not very happy about it. What is totally unacceptable to me would be having just a 30-mile EV in 2 years, that would be mostly useless to me (but might be still OK for many short-range users).

 

[ttweed]

...in the quote from Mark Webber....

The Australian leader of the F1 World Driving Championship is being quoted about the Leaf battery somewhere? :mrgreen:

[Sorry, Michael, couldn't resist. A "freudian slip" of the keyboard. no doubt...while watching the Korean GP, perhaps?]

TT