Nuke Crisis : Level 7 on overall impact

[ENIAC]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/14/AR2011031405086.html

Apparently it is not the radiation that gets you - but the fear of radiation. So, this is like terrorism ...

Actually it's the death from radiation poisoning as well as the radioiodine concentrating in the thyroid gland which results in tumors. Thyroid tumors weren't mentioned in the article and apparently that is the biggest concern in these situations.

 

[evnow]

Actually it's the death from radiation poisoning as well as the radioiodine concentrating in the thyroid gland which results in tumors. Thyroid tumors weren't mentioned in the article and apparently that is the biggest concern in these situations.

Even if someone doesn't get high level of radiation - the possibility still causes a lot of stress and that is what the WaPo story was talking about.

 

[ENIAC]

Actually it's the death from radiation poisoning as well as the radioiodine concentrating in the thyroid gland which results in tumors. Thyroid tumors weren't mentioned in the article and apparently that is the biggest concern in these situations.

Even if someone doesn't get high level of radiation - the possibility still causes a lot of stress and that is what the WaPo story was talking about.

Right, but is comes off as there's nothing to fear but fear itself. BS, there's real health risks in these situations. It's not in your head.

 

[evnow]

Right, but is comes off as there's nothing to fear but fear itself. BS, there's real health risks in these situations. It's not in your head.

The fear is not commensurate with the risk (just like in a terrorism situation).

 

[ENIAC]

Right, but is comes off as there's nothing to fear but fear itself. BS, there's real health risks in these situations. It's not in your head.

The fear is not commensurate with the risk (just like in a terrorism situation).

No, it's not at all just like in a terrorism situation. From the article I posted.

To many scientists, the worst consequence of an overdose of radioiodine is not the lethal dose a few might get. It is the non-lethal dose which would concentrate in the thyroid gland in the throat, where radiation might produce tumors in thousands of people over a period of 30 years.

 

[LakeLeaf]

NHK is reporting that this morning (about two hours ago), the radiation reading outside reactor number 3 was 400 millisieverts.

1 millisievert = 100 millirem

 

[ENIAC]

Radiation in Japan Already Bad for Human Health - Official

The radiation reading at 0831 local time (2331 GMT) climbed to 8,217 microsieverts an hour from 1,941 about 40 minutes earlier, Tepco said. The annual legal limit is 1,000 microsieverts.

 

[evnow]

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/

Today I got calls and emails from all sorts of folks, worrying about the Japanese radiation reaching the Northwest in dangerous quantities. Potassium iodide pills, used for thyroid protection from radioactive iodine have been stripped from the shelves in Seattle.

Duct tape anyone ?

 

[AndyH]

Right, but is comes off as there's nothing to fear but fear itself. BS, there's real health risks in these situations. It's not in your head.

The fear is not commensurate with the risk (just like in a terrorism situation).

I have to agree with evnow. When stationed in Europe in the 1980s, the focus of our defensive exercises was nuclear/chemical/biological, with nuclear in the lead. It's a lot easier decontaminating the outside of a human than easing their fear - and fear is more prevalent, chronic, and at least as debilitating as cancer. Fear is mental/spiritual cancer.

 

[copdoc]

Our news is not only 24-hour, it's also completely slanted.
Headline at Wall St. Journal: "Officials Report Progress at Plant" with an editorial "Japan Does Not Face Another Chernobyl."
Headline at BBC: "Radiation Alert after Japan Blast"
Editorial at NY Times subtitled: "The unfolding tragedy should prompt the U.S. to study its nuclear plans."
(Earlier this morning they were even more bizarrely out of sync.)


Either the world is about to end ... or it isn't.

But, more to the point for this thread, is this quote from NY Times:
"At the same time, nearly all automakers, even those with no plants in Japan, could be forced to halt production of some models in the weeks ahead if Japanese suppliers are unable to quickly resume making electronics or other parts used in the vehicles, analysts said Monday."

And "Nissan said that six of its plants had been damaged but that they would reopen either Wednesday or Friday. In a statement Monday, it said supplies of most nameplates were sufficient but warned that “some Infiniti models and Nissan GTR and 370Z may experience delays in shipment.”"
(http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/business/global/15supply.html?hp)

 

[AndyH]

Between the physical plant damage, and supplier damage, and transportation disruptions and fuel shortages and rolling blackouts, it's going to be pretty shaky for Japanese manufacturing for a while. I guess this is a perfect storm for a just-in-time system.

 

[ENIAC]

Right, but is comes off as there's nothing to fear but fear itself. BS, there's real health risks in these situations. It's not in your head.

The fear is not commensurate with the risk (just like in a terrorism situation).

I have to agree with evnow. When stationed in Europe in the 1980s, the focus of our defensive exercises was nuclear/chemical/biological, with nuclear in the lead. It's a lot easier decontaminating the outside of a human than easing their fear - and fear is more prevalent, chronic, and at least as debilitating as cancer. Fear is mental/spiritual cancer.

To be clear, I'm referring to citizens who live in relative close proximity of the nuclear power plant not those further away, because as we know radiation drops dramatically with distance. Second, I think I'll go with the scientists who say its the risk of thyroid tumors which are a major concern. Now, I will agree there are many individuals who are not at risk and have unwarranted fears. That occurs in any disaster.

 

[AndyH]

Your're welcome to go with anyone you choose - I'll certainly not get in the way!

Yes - radiation levels drop with distance. But - are you talking about Alpha, Beta, or Gamma? Because the radiated energy levels will drop, but the particles - think dust here - can travel great distances. Think of 'fallout' as the rays that follow you home. Note that the Japanese are advised to stay indoors, cover their skin, and wear dust masks? That's to combat particles.

The good news is that it's very simple to keep the thyroid happy and keep cancer rates down - simply wash the particles off the skin, don't bring 'dusty' clothes inside, and don't eat contaminated food. Close vents and windows, put an airlock and decon space between the outside and the door is a good thing as well. Extra points if one can filter the air and positively pressurize the house. If my old training still holds, one layer of cotton is enough to protect from alpha - but it'll raise hell if we eat or breath the irradiated dust and/or particles because once it's inside our body it becomes the gift that keeps on giving. Simple but not easy.

[edit] Had to refresh the memory. Alpha and beta are particles. Stop alpha with a single sheet of paper. Beta is essentially an electron - takes aluminum or plexiglass/perspex/lexan to stop. http://www.darvill.clara.net/nucrad/types.htm [/edit]

If you're an American taxpayer, thanks for supplying my training. Experiencing being taped into protective clothing and a gas mask, carrying Geiger counters and dosimeters, and operating in a contaminated environment was priceless. But I certainly hope to never do it again.

 

[Smidge204]

Slightly different mechanisms here. The dust masks will not protect against radiation itself at all. Ionizing radiation is not at all "like dust" - it's not like you'll get a fine layer of alpha particles settling on your disused bookshelf :lol:

The concern here is generally with alpha particles - free protons. Being massive charged particles they are easily blocked, such as by your clothing and the layer of dead skin cells on your body. They are then absorbed and can be re-radiated some time later - so the decontaminating wash basically rinses away the potentially radioactive dander before it re-emits and possibly goes a little deeper...

If the masks are serving any real purpose other than psychological, it's simply to limit inhalation of actual dust. If there is sufficiently high levels of ionizing radiation it may be possible for particles suspended in the air to absorb it and become radioactive itself, THEN you inhale it. There is really nothing between a radioactive dust particle and your living tissues once you've inhaled it. Hence, masks.

It's not clear if the problem is big enough to warrant the masks, though. If they aren't stripping people naked and hosing them down on a regular basis yet I have to doubt the air is contaminated too... but it's absolutely better to be safe than sorry.
=Smidge=

 

[ENIAC]

Your're welcome to go with anyone you choose - I'll certainly not get in the way!

Fair enough AndyH. Let me pose this question to you for fun. For $5M US (tax free and all your expenses paid) how close to the Fukushima Daiichi complex would you being willing to live, with your whole family, for a period of one year starting today? One mile? Ten miles? 100 Miles?

 

[AndyH]

Slightly different mechanisms here. The dust masks will not protect against radiation itself at all. Ionizing radiation is not at all "like dust" - it's not like you'll get a fine layer of alpha particles settling on your disused bookshelf :lol:

Point taken. Dumbed it down a bit too far. But with every explosion...

My bit of experience was post-attack training (so it was about particles and other happy fallout), and living in Europe during/after Chernobyl blew its top. Radioactive milk, anyone? How about the no-fly-zone salad today? No?

 

[Smidge204]

Radioactive milk, anyone? How about the no-fly-zone salad today? No?

Sorry, can't help it some days...

=Smidge=

 

[AndyH]

Your're welcome to go with anyone you choose - I'll certainly not get in the way!

Fair enough AndyH. Let me pose this question to you for fun. For $5M US (tax free and all your expenses paid) how close to the Fukushima Daiichi complex would you being willing to live, with your whole family, for a period of one year starting today? One mile? Ten miles? 100 Miles?

I live a bit under 200 miles from the 2700MW South Texas Project reactors now, so that's a comfortable enough distance rain or shine.

Nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition, though, do they? I'd much rather dodge falling wind turbines and collapsing solar panel racks.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the issue is escalating if you have not heard. masks are no longer an option. evacuation is the only real answer, but how to do without causing a panic moving millions along an already compromised transportation system is what officials are pondering now.

the question of evacuation is no longer an issue

 

[evnow]

Update 5: http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html

Japanese authorities told the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that radiation levels at the plant site between units 3 and 4 reached a peak of some 400 millisieverts per hour. "This is a high dose-level value," said the body, "but it is a local value at a single location and at a certain point in time."

Later readings were 11.9 millisieverts per hour, followed six hours later by 0.6 millisieverts, which the IAEA said "indicate the level of radioactivity has been decreasing."

...
JAIF reported that temperatures in the cooling ponds at units 5 and 6 are increasing, but the reason for this is not yet available.