TomT
Well-known member
Perhaps, but consider how poorly the PiP is selling...
TomMoloughney said:
Official Toyota RAV4 EV thread
- Thread starter jcesare
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
It's selling poorly because Toyota is doing a shitty job explaining what the car really offers. So they are pricing it on the same level as a regular Prius, with the result that most people buying it now know it has a plug, but don't care much about the EV part. I'm afraid it might do more harm than good to the EV industry.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Well, the PiP is selling in FAR greater quantities than the Rav4 EV. See http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2012-dashboard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.hybridcars.com/april-2013-dashboard/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. But then again, the PiP is available in more states than the Rav4 EV.TomT said:
I don't recall having received many emails about the PiP. I see a still in my inbox from long ago.
As for lion's comment, some I'm sure are buying for HOV sticker benefits in states like CA w/o having to worry about BEV range anxiety and associated possible unsuitability due to future changes (e.g. commute becomes too long, battery degrades too much, may need to move where there's no charging, etc.). I'd imagine many Volt and Civic NGV buyers are in the same camp.
evnow
Well-known member
According to the survey some 50% bought because of HOV stickers (one of the reasons ?).cwerdna said:
TomT
Well-known member
Something many of us predicted before it ever went on sale once all the particulars were known...
lion said:
Ingineer
Well-known member
I thought the "gliders" were built in Canada, and then shipped to Fremont where Tesla adds their secret sauce. Either that or Tesla builds the battery pack and powertrain in Fremont, ships it all to Canada, and then Toyota ships the completed cars right back to California. (Doubtful, but you never know!)cwerdna said:
-Phil
fooljoe
Well-known member
FWIW, the label on the driver's side door says manufactured in Canada.Ingineer said:
Ingineer
Well-known member
It's clear the body is, but where is final assembly?fooljoe said:
-Phil
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Ingineer said:
The Ontario provincial government made a sweetheart deal to make sure it was assembled in Woodstock, Ontario. The Tesla drivetrain is shipped from Menlo Park / Fremont.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+tesla+build+rav4+ev+woodstock+ontario.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
August 05, 2011
Toyota and Tesla Announce Decision to Build RAV4 Electric Vehicle at Toyota's Woodstock, Ontario
Production Facility
Shared Line with Gas-Powered RAV4 to Maximize Production Efficiencies and Quality Control
Tesla to Ship Electric Powertrains from California
Woodstock, Ontario (August 5, 2011)—Toyota and Tesla Motors, Inc. (Tesla) confirmed today that their jointly-developed RAV4 electric vehicle will be built at Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada, Inc. (TMMC) in Woodstock, Ontario beginning in 2012.
“The Tesla-Toyota joint development team has agreed that building the vehicle at the Woodstock plant on the same line as the gasoline-powered RAV4, will streamline and simplify the production process and guarantee the highest level of quality control,” said Ray Tanguay, TMMC Chairman, who hosted Canadian officials at the plant today and thanked them for their support. “This is a great example of Toyota’s determination to collaborate with companies with leading edge technology.”
As previously announced, Toyota will pay Tesla approximately $100 million to supply the electric powertrain, which includes the battery, motor, gear box and power electronics for the RAV4 EV. Tesla will build the electric powertrains at its production facility in Palo Alto, California and then ship them to TMMC for final assembly into the vehicle.
The RAV4 EV will be sold at U.S. Toyota dealers through Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. (TMS). Details including pricing, volume and regional distribution will be determined and announced at a later time.
In July of last year, Tesla and Toyota Engineering and Manufacturing, America (TEMA) collaborated to convert 32 conventional gas-engine RAV4 compact SUVs into fully functional RAV4 EV prototypes.
Toyota is committed to a broad strategy of sustainable mobility, incorporating products, partnerships, the urban environment, and energy. The RAV4 EV is one of several advanced-technology new products coming for Toyota. In addition to expanding the Prius family with the upcoming Prius v and Prius Plug-in Hybrid, Toyota will introduce an electric version of the Scion iQ in 2012 and a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle by 2015.
*********************************
Read below, and then remember that Toyota does not sell a single EV in Canada:
http://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2011/08/ontario-puts-a-charge-into-electric-vehicle-production.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ontario Puts A Charge Into Electric Vehicle Production
McGuinty Government Investing In Clean Technology, Protecting Jobs
August 5, 2011 10:30 a.m.
Office of the Premier
Ontario took another step today toward the plan to become a world-leading clean energy and manufacturing economy.
Premier Dalton McGuinty was at Toyota's Woodstock plant to congratulate workers and celebrate Ontario being chosen to produce the Toyota RAV4 EV (electric vehicle) because of the province's commitment to electric vehicles. He also thanked the company for its commitment to clean technology innovation and for creating good jobs for Ontario families.
Ontario, in partnership with the Government of Canada, will support the production of the RAV4 EV through their investment in Toyota's recently announced Project Green Light. The total investment among all partners is helping to protect 6,500 jobs and thousands of supplier jobs throughout the province.
Partnering with industry and supporting the auto sector is part of the McGuinty government's plan to create and protect good jobs for Ontario families, strengthen local economies and promote clean technologies.
Quick Facts
Ontario and the Government of Canada are each providing $70.8 million towards Project Green Light. The total investment from all partners in could reach $545 million.
The auto industry supports approximately 400,000 jobs across the Ontario.
Ontario offers consumer incentives between $5,000 and $8,500 for electric vehicles purchased or leased after July 1, 2010, with the goal of having one out of 20 vehicles in Ontario electrically powered by 2020.
Ontario builds more cars than any other state or province in North America.
Randy
Well-known member
Tesla assembles the RAV4EV battery packs in Palo Alto at their corporate headquarters building. I saw the operation on a tour from the catwalk above....
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Randy said:
Waidy says she saw the Rav4 packs in Menlo Park?
SuperBlack
Active member
Tony,
As an experienced RAV4 EV owner now, can you give us an update on your *honest* impressions of the car, as compared with the Leaf?
IIRC, you needed more range, and the RAV does offer that, but how much more in real daily life?
Aside from that, how do you feel about the driving experience and comfort, again compared to the Leaf?
As an experienced RAV4 EV owner now, can you give us an update on your *honest* impressions of the car, as compared with the Leaf?
IIRC, you needed more range, and the RAV does offer that, but how much more in real daily life?
Aside from that, how do you feel about the driving experience and comfort, again compared to the Leaf?
GRA
Well-known member
I expect Tony is a bit busy with BC2BC starting tomorrow, but I could swear that he's already done this, either here or else on the MyRAV4EV.com forum.SuperBlack said:
SuperBlack
Active member
Ok, thanks. I wasn't following the BC2BC thing, but there's no rush anyway.
Even if he's done it before, I'm asking for an update, as of now, having owned it for a while.
In any case, no worries Tony if you don't have time or find this tedious!
Even if he's done it before, I'm asking for an update, as of now, having owned it for a while.
In any case, no worries Tony if you don't have time or find this tedious!
cwerdna
Well-known member
He posted his rant about the Rav4 EV at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. If I were in his shoes and had his many probs, I'd have my experienced soured by it too, even though I'm a Toyota (and Nissan) fan. The Toyotas in our family have been pretty reliable.SuperBlack said:
I think you might be best served by searching for his posts in this thread. He used to really like the vehicle for the range and power, until he had all that trouble (gearbox noise and check EV system downtime).
After the gateway ECU repairs, it seems like it's been reliable enough for him (?) to get him from San Diego to Canada (track him at http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0V4JEV6SMmgAbGhJRkxlQsuShMhhalQHv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
. I haven't seen him post on FB or anywhere about the problem cropping up again but have been semi-following his posts and beacon page. Let's see if that's still the case when he completes his drive back down to the Mexican border.
Maybe you can meet up with him when he gets back down to So Cal (e.g. at a meet or at the BC2BC end point/along the way)?
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
I'm sitting here in Centralia, Washington with multiple successive charge interrupts. I've lost many hours in the rally, and am probably last (to my knowledge, every car is now south of Portland).
I'm not convinced the car is responsible. I think it might be a weak breaker at the RV spot. Of course, I like RV spots and Tesla Roadster charge stations since I can pull a full 40 amps, and RV parks are virtually all 240 volts instead of commercial 208 volts.
I haven't had any issues over the last 2000 miles in about 10 days, with over 1000 to go. Of course, the charge timers are off. There are all the "features", like the idiot fuel gauge that stops at 80%. It's awesome sitting here wondering when it will be done, since the fuel gauge has long since displayed "full" with all 16 fuel bar segments. Dumb, dumb, dumb. My work around is to turn on the car, then off, so that the screen will pop up with remaining time for the charge.
A new problem has surfaced with the navigation. It doesn't appear to always show the total miles to my destination, and that has come very close to causing some big problems. I double check every distance now on Google maps. This issue isn't even repeatable. I can put in the exact same address more than once and get different distances (all on the same route).
No EV is loaded down like this one is, with hundreds of pounds of "stuff" in my car. Longest leg so far is 151.6 miles, but that was very agressive driving to go uphill almost 4000 feet!! I had hoped to do a 200 mile leg, but that's not looking good.
Compared to a LEAF, the Toyota Rav4 EV has WAY MORE ISSUES than a LEAF. Toyota will never "fix" anything on this car, since only 2600 will be made, and probably never be made again. Nissan, on the other hand, will continue to improve the LEAF every year.
The dainty batteries (cant handle heat) and limited range of the LEAF are the two biggest things holding it back. It's conceivable that their new battery chemistry planned for 2015 will address this, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The Rav4 has its own set of issues, but they keep on swapping parts.
Eh, I'd still recommend either car with very specific guidelines. Don't BUY a LEAF... Lease it. Know that in hot environments, you might lose 30% capacity before the end of a 36 month lease. In cold weather, the car will also lose a of of range from a cold battery. The Rav4 "could" have the same accelerated degradation cells if you left it exposed to heat, but any charging or driving will cool the batteries. The LEAF won't.
The increased range, physically larger size, and the solid warranty reputation of Toyota put Rav4 EV in a strong value position, even with the durability shortcomings. The same could be argued for LEAF. First, the buyer must carefully weigh the proposed mission with the known limitations of each vehicle.
I'm not convinced the car is responsible. I think it might be a weak breaker at the RV spot. Of course, I like RV spots and Tesla Roadster charge stations since I can pull a full 40 amps, and RV parks are virtually all 240 volts instead of commercial 208 volts.
I haven't had any issues over the last 2000 miles in about 10 days, with over 1000 to go. Of course, the charge timers are off. There are all the "features", like the idiot fuel gauge that stops at 80%. It's awesome sitting here wondering when it will be done, since the fuel gauge has long since displayed "full" with all 16 fuel bar segments. Dumb, dumb, dumb. My work around is to turn on the car, then off, so that the screen will pop up with remaining time for the charge.
A new problem has surfaced with the navigation. It doesn't appear to always show the total miles to my destination, and that has come very close to causing some big problems. I double check every distance now on Google maps. This issue isn't even repeatable. I can put in the exact same address more than once and get different distances (all on the same route).
No EV is loaded down like this one is, with hundreds of pounds of "stuff" in my car. Longest leg so far is 151.6 miles, but that was very agressive driving to go uphill almost 4000 feet!! I had hoped to do a 200 mile leg, but that's not looking good.
Compared to a LEAF, the Toyota Rav4 EV has WAY MORE ISSUES than a LEAF. Toyota will never "fix" anything on this car, since only 2600 will be made, and probably never be made again. Nissan, on the other hand, will continue to improve the LEAF every year.
The dainty batteries (cant handle heat) and limited range of the LEAF are the two biggest things holding it back. It's conceivable that their new battery chemistry planned for 2015 will address this, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The Rav4 has its own set of issues, but they keep on swapping parts.
Eh, I'd still recommend either car with very specific guidelines. Don't BUY a LEAF... Lease it. Know that in hot environments, you might lose 30% capacity before the end of a 36 month lease. In cold weather, the car will also lose a of of range from a cold battery. The Rav4 "could" have the same accelerated degradation cells if you left it exposed to heat, but any charging or driving will cool the batteries. The LEAF won't.
The increased range, physically larger size, and the solid warranty reputation of Toyota put Rav4 EV in a strong value position, even with the durability shortcomings. The same could be argued for LEAF. First, the buyer must carefully weigh the proposed mission with the known limitations of each vehicle.
SuperBlack
Active member
Thanks Tony, and good luck with the rest of your trek.
Sounds like the RAV4 is not for us. The extra range is less critical than reliability, and I've not really been running into battery degradation issues so far.
More and more, I'm thinking of waiting for a reasonably priced used Model S two years from now.
Sounds like the RAV4 is not for us. The extra range is less critical than reliability, and I've not really been running into battery degradation issues so far.
More and more, I'm thinking of waiting for a reasonably priced used Model S two years from now.
cwerdna
Well-known member
The reliability of the Model S is truly unknown right now. However, if you're used to Honda/Toyota reliability, you'll find some of the types of issues reported at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10398-Model-S-Technical-Mechanical-Issues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and some of the other threads there to be rather disturbing. Also poke around at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/forumdisplay.php/73-Model-S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.SuperBlack said:
Some of the problems seem self-inflicted (e.g. external door handles that extend and retract, but are problematic for some). Others are interesting like the supposedly loose fuses and some people resolving their door handle problems by remove and re-inserting fuses (some IIRC said they were actually loose), doors opening by themselves (related to the door handles), and windshield stress cracks supposedly not caused by rock chips. I'm a very active user on Priuschat and we never saw as many problems on Priuses w/so many repairs needed on a given car even on the 1st model year of the Gen 3 Prius (2010 model year).
I hope that there end up being enough respondents to Consumer Reports reliability surveys and that we eventually get a picture of what the Model S' long-term reliability is.
doug401
Well-known member
SuperBlack said:
That's too bad. I own both and I love both. But I drive the Rav because it an incredible machine. Although I'm ready to deal with any issues that arise, I haven't had any issues. Just pure EV joy. Fast, almost twice the usable range as the Leaf, super functional (I carry 10 ft lengths of lumber inside) bigger nav screen, better climate controls, and faster home 220 charging @ 9.6 kw.
Tony is highly critical of both vehicles, and rightfully so, but I am more accepting of each vehicles flaws, willing to balance the good with the potential problems.
IMHO, the Leaf has better brakes, handles better, is quieter, has DC3, and is more economical/cheaper. It owns its market share and there is nothing else like it in its class.
The Rav is in a class by itself. Nothing else like it period, and won't be for years.
Lease a Leaf, or buy a Rav. Either choice is a good move. Also... My "after tax credit" Rav4 ev cost... $32,000. What a deal
Similar threads
