Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

[EdmondLeaf]

But for those currently affected - and apologies in advance for the oversimplification - it sounds like most of you would still like to keep your LEAFs, as long as the risk of immature failure can be mitigated. A few just want to be done with the LEAF and move on to another car- and some already have. Is that a fair assessment?

I think there is one more group: owners that sold their cars in the harry with loss due to lack of response to battery capacity/range degradation, but otherwise will keep their LEAF if risk of immature was mitigated, however I am not sure if Nissan will be interested in this group.

 

[Jay]

Speaking with my 'journalist hat' off, but as an owner, this is my impression of what has played out, and what I'd like to see come from all of this.

My perception:
There is enough evidence to have a healthy skepticism of the 76% range after 5 year claim, or that acceptable losses are happening. By following this story, and often speaking to Nissan executives myself, I have noticed Nissan's non-willingness to discuss this matter for a protracted amount of time...a time that roughly corresponds with the entire summer/extreme heat season in Arizona. Now temperatures have mitigated, and LEAF 'bars' have stopped dropping so quickly, Nissan seems to have switched gears. This may be coincidence, but it is what it is, and that is how my brain works.

I see an 8 month hiatus on this issue happening before the next round in the summer of '13. This may be the time Nissan seeks to get out a new LEAF, and a new battery (and/or a BMS) to compartmentalize this issue.

What I'd like to see happen:
From the evidence presented, I think the biggest problem from Nissan is the quoting of hard numbers like 80%, 76% on battery life, and "sure thing" statements about how the LEAF is performing as expected, while no such confidence or hard numbers, is demonstrated when it comes to the battery warranty.

I'm not suggesting Nissan should warranty the packs to achieve 80% over 5 years/60,000 miles....but do pick a number. If you believe 76% is realistic for most people in the most hottest of climates in Phoenix, than saying "We guarantee 70% at 5 years/60,000 for non abused cars" shouldn't be that hard. Proportionally, if Nissan's statements on the "glide path" are correct, the company would only have to warranty a handful of the 38,000 cars on the road (and ones that should be warranted). In so doing, the company wouldn't be perceived as being duplicitous, but as standing behind their product. The sentiment I think (as an owner) I want from Nissan is, "Don't worry about it, we have your back if by some chance we messed up."

Jay Cole
InsideEVs.com

 

[evchels]

That is a fair assessment. But regardless, there is a problem with the battery no matter where you live. I do not have any issues with my Pacific Northwest Leaf as of now, but what happens if I were relocated to a hot climate. Now I have a problem. I am tiring of worrying about this and might be in the "I am done with this camp" and would like to be out. I made the mistake and bought mine so do not have the "I can be done with this" at lease end.

Good point. Agree that there is a geographic overlay to the groups I mentioned, and just because you're not in an "affected area" doesn't mean you're not concerned. I'd thought of you guys more as being in the "trust" camp- i.e. not necessarily perceiving a range issue now or are in an area where the affected folks seem to be clustered, but do worry from the "what if" perspective and don't trust you'll be covered if and when. About right?

one more group: owners that sold their cars in the harry with loss due to lack of response to battery capacity/range degradation, but otherwise will keep their LEAF if risk of immature was mitigated, however I am not sure if Nissan will be interested in this group.

I can't imagine why they wouldn't be- you're already sold on EVs and still seem to be on LEAF, outside of this issue. Would say a lot about lessons learned if they managed to win you back.

I'm not suggesting Nissan should warranty the packs to achieve 80% over 5 years/60,000 miles....but do pick a number. If you believe 76% is realistic for most people in the most hottest of climates in Phoenix, than saying "We guarantee 70% at 5 years/60,000 for non abused cars" shouldn't be that hard.

This has always seemed like the most straightforward approach to me.

The sentiment I think (as an owner) I want from Nissan is, "Don't worry about it, we have your back if by some chance we messed up."

Well said. And something every automaker ought to be conveying, especially to their earliest customers. I know everyone wants "mass-market" EVs...but if the industry (not just automakers, but utilities and others too) doesn't do right by the early adopters, there will be no mass market.

 

[thankyouOB]

Nissan readers and monitors:
I want to keep my Leaf. I love it. I own it. I dont want to sell it.

Please tell us what the price of an installed new battery is.

Is there a price?

 

[scottf200]

I'm not suggesting Nissan should warranty the packs to achieve 80% over 5 years/60,000 miles....but do pick a number. If you believe 76% is realistic for most people in the most hottest of climates in Phoenix, than saying "We guarantee 70% at 5 years/60,000 for non abused cars" shouldn't be that hard. Jay Cole InsideEVs.com

The trouble with that statement is the defn of "abused cars".

 

[downeykp]

That is a fair assessment. But regardless, there is a problem with the battery no matter where you live. I do not have any issues with my Pacific Northwest Leaf as of now, but what happens if I were relocated to a hot climate. Now I have a problem. I am tiring of worrying about this and might be in the "I am done with this camp" and would like to be out. I made the mistake and bought mine so do not have the "I can be done with this" at lease end.

Good point. Agree that there is a geographic overlay to the groups I mentioned, and just because you're not in an "affected area" doesn't mean you're not concerned. I'd thought of you guys more as being in the "trust" camp- i.e. not necessarily perceiving a range issue now or are in an area where the affected folks seem to be clustered, but do worry from the "what if" perspective and don't trust you'll be covered if and when. About right?

Yes. About right. I do not want to end up with a 3000lb. paper weight that is of no value. I am a middle school science teacher who made $57000 last year. I do not have the resources to have to "eat" this.
But I do worry about charging, too much, too long, too fast. There is way too much worry because of bad communication.

 

[downeykp]

That is a fair assessment. But regardless, there is a problem with the battery no matter where you live. I do not have any issues with my Pacific Northwest Leaf as of now, but what happens if I were relocated to a hot climate. Now I have a problem. I am tiring of worrying about this and might be in the "I am done with this camp" and would like to be out. I made the mistake and bought mine so do not have the "I can be done with this" at lease end.

Good point. Agree that there is a geographic overlay to the groups I mentioned, and just because you're not in an "affected area" doesn't mean you're not concerned. I'd thought of you guys more as being in the "trust" camp- i.e. not necessarily perceiving a range issue now or are in an area where the affected folks seem to be clustered, but do worry from the "what if" perspective and don't trust you'll be covered if and when. About right?

Yes. About right. I do not want to end up with a 3000lb. paper weight that is of no value. I am a middle school science teacher who made $57000 last year. I do not have the resources to have to "eat" this.
But I do worry about charging, too much, too long, too fast. There is way too much worry because of bad communication.

 

[pchilds]

I'm not suggesting Nissan should warranty the packs to achieve 80% over 5 years/60,000 miles....but do pick a number. If you believe 76% is realistic for most people in the most hottest of climates in Phoenix, than saying "We guarantee 70% at 5 years/60,000 for non abused cars" shouldn't be that hard. Jay Cole InsideEVs.com

The trouble with that statement is the defn of "abused cars".

Simple, if you get a 5 or 4 star battery report, you have not abused your car.

 

[ericsf]

If many people are already at 21.25% loss (2 bars, 15% bar 1 + 6.25% bar 2) in the first year (and a half or so), why would they believe Nissan that the next 4 years or so will only sustain another 3% loss?

The only credibility right now is to back all claims and projections up with a battery capacity warranty.

I'll have to agree with your last point on the warranty. I was worried about my battery since I bought the car... until recently. I know that what I am going to write is going to upset you and the people who have lost bars but here it is: Recent tests and mesurements have in fact restored my confidence in my car's battery ability to perform as I was hoping.

 

[thankyouOB]

yes, downeykp,
more information about charging protocols would be very helpful -- including optimum and good, better, best parameters for temp when charging, charge after commute or charge close to departure time, the sweet spot of capacity when battery sits overnight or at work, overlay those issues on 80 and 100%, using capacity below two bars and to low battery, etc.

yes, it adds complexity, but many of us are able to handle some of that.
during initial months -- prolly first year -- i charged always in the same way -- fill up at 8 p.m. when rates went down --and set charger and left it alone, except on weekends. now, i set charger daily depending on usage and departure times, typically trying to charge in the middle of the night when car had cooled off, but not near to departure time as charging seemed to add a bar to car temp.

 

[nogajim]

I'm not suggesting Nissan should warranty the packs to achieve 80% over 5 years/60,000 miles....but do pick a number. If you believe 76% is realistic for most people in the most hottest of climates in Phoenix, than saying "We guarantee 70% at 5 years/60,000 for non abused cars" shouldn't be that hard. Jay Cole InsideEVs.com

The trouble with that statement is the defn of "abused cars".

Simple, if you get a 5 or 4 star battery report, you have not abused your car.

+1, especially for 5 starts, which I think is the vast majority who posted. It means you made a good faith effort to take care of the battery. With Carwings, they have a very good record of how we treated the car.

 

[xtremeflyer]

Here's my simple, fairly concrete way that I think Nissan can ease people's issues for those that aren't ready to give back their cars, but want comfort knowing their cars won't be worthless in the next year or two.

For Lease Owners: Accept the car back at any time in the lease with no fees beyond excessive wear and tear and over mileage. This way, people will keep their cars as long as they feel confortable and once the range gets to the point they can no longer use the vehicle, they can hand the keys and walk away.

For Purchase Owners: Require the dealers purchase the trade-ins at the pre-assigned residuals that were given to Lease owners at the time of purchase. For example, the MY 2011 residuals are below for 15,000 miles per year. Now those that purchased can feel confident that someone will buy their vehicle when ready (at least within the first 4 years) and at a decent price. This relieves Nissan from having to deal with messy paperwork and financing to convert sales to leases, but still allows the purchased owners the confidence they'll be able to sell their cars to someone for a decent price. The dealership can still deduct costs for excessive wear and tear and over mileage at the same standard as a lease turn in.

SL :
MSRP - 33,720
Mileage - 15,000 per year
Residual
49% (24 months)
44% (36 months)
43% (39 months)
39% (48 months)

SV :
MSRP - 32,780
Mileage - 15,000 per year
Residual
51% (24 months)
45% (36 months)
44% (39 months)
41% (48 months)

 

[WetEV]

Nissan readers and monitors:
I want to keep my Leaf. I love it. I own it. I dont want to sell it.

Please tell us what the price of an installed new battery is.

Is there a price?

+1

An official statement about this would calm a lot of non-AZ people.

 

[Nubo]

...The one that caught my attention tonight is the lessees vs owners, especially as it relates to the AZ issue. It makes sense that the owners would be more concerned about the technical impact (as opposed to the broader communication/trust concerns that I know many feel.) I'm curious whether you guys think any proposed "remedy" should be different between the two groups? If so, how?

I am a lessee. I am fairly confident that the car will do what I need it to do for the duration of the 3-year lease in my circumstances. So my personal concern is more along the lines of wanting the technology to succeed in the marketplace.

Once you get past the limited range issue (which is a hard enough sell), you just CAN'T be vague about the robustness of the battery. Yes, we all know that batteries age and lose capacity over time. But this needs to be defined and delineated before the general public is going to be sold. As we can see, even the most enthusiastic supporters are fading because of the completely vague and non-committal stance Nissan have taken with this key component.

Put me in the camp that insists a warranty is needed. There must be some boundaries set, both on customer expectations, and on Nissan's responsibilities. Without a warranty, words like "gradual", and "normal" can mean anything. Without a warranty, Nissan is free to craft their communications along the lines of a Sci-Fi series, where any outcome can be explained away or reversed in the very next episode.
"No, the batteries are fine, it's the instrumentation"
"The instrumentation is fine, you're doing it wrong"
"Congratulations on your 5-star battery report"
"There is no excessive degradation"
"Don't worry, the excessive degradation will level off"

There is no trust, because there is no compact. At this point it's "caveat emptor". I still jumped because I believe EVs are the correct path, and I mitigated my risk by leasing. But I do not expect most people to be similarly motivated. And as for the early-adopter buyers, I do not expect very good word of mouth unless they are very deliberately taken good care of. "Ostentatiously taken good care of" would be better yet. And if Nissan cannot get them to be enthusiastic ambassadors to the general public (who are more leery), they will have a very hard time gaining in the marketplace.

 

[saywatt]

Nissan readers and monitors:
I want to keep my Leaf. I love it. I own it. I dont want to sell it.

+1

I want my battery to degrade between 7 and 10 years. The current battery did not exist 7 - 10 years ago. I can only imagine the next battery will be improved. If I'm correct, I will gladely purchase a new battery with all the money I saved not having to buy or burn oil :!: :!: :!:

 

[RegGuheert]

I want my battery to degrade between 7 and 10 years. The current battery did not exist 7 - 10 years ago. I can only imagine the next battery will be improved. If I'm correct, I will gladely purchase a new battery with all the money I saved not having to buy or burn oil :!: :!: :!:

So will I, but that brings up a good question for Nissan: Will Nissan provide a battery upgrade path for the 2011/2012 LEAF or will we need to move to a different vehicle to access newer battery technology?

 

[edatoakrun]

Nissan readers and monitors:
I want to keep my Leaf. I love it. I own it. I dont want to sell it.

Please tell us what the price of an installed new battery is.

Is there a price?

I'd take this a step further. I believe that the most significant effort Nissan could make now to calm the current battery capacity hysteria, is announce some sort of guaranteed cost program for battery trade-ins for all LEAF drivers. I understand future battery costs and/or improvements may require Nissan to take on some added financial risk, by doing this.

I think at this point, it would be a risk worth taking for Nissan, since so many LEAF owners (at least those who frequent this forum) who do not currently have capacity loss problems, nonetheless do seem to have become obsessed by the FUD campaign on the subject of "battery degradation", which unfortunately, seems to have largely originated on this forum.

I happen to be one of the earlier LEAF owners who has made an effort to monitor my LEAF's range since new, and while I'm confident that I have not lost significant range after ~13,000 miles, I can't be positive about the precise amount of capacity loss I've had, since I feel I probably cannot depend on my LEAFs energy use information.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I understand that why this Letter was focused on the capacity loss issue, but I suggest that further efforts must be made to explain why the capacity bar loss reports, the apparently erroneous kWh use reports (like my own), and even the unauthorized "gid"/SOC data, do not accurately represent actual battery capacity and range loss.

 

[Bassman]

It's pretty obvious that after the last firmware update, the mi/Kwh went way up from before the update. I typically used to get to work with an efficiency of 4.1 to 4.2 mi/Kwh, now I've been getting 4.7 to 4.8 and once in awhile as high as 5.0 mi/Kwh. It makes it kind of hard to check capacity against last years data.

 

[WetEV]

Put me in the camp that insists a warranty is needed. There must be some boundaries set, both on customer expectations, and on Nissan's responsibilities.

+1

I suggest 70% at 5 years or 60,000 miles as an absolute minimum. Cut back the coverage somewhat for those getting less than 5 star battery reports. Prorated, so the replacement battery pack cost needs to be announced as at the same time.

Owner, and I expect to never need this as I'm in a cool location.

 

[padamson1]

It's pretty obvious that after the last firmware update, the mi/Kwh went way up from before the update. I typically used to get to work with an efficiency of 4.1 to 4.2 mi/Kwh, now I've been getting 4.7 to 4.8 and once in awhile as high as 5.0 mi/Kwh. It makes it kind of hard to check capacity against last years data.

This probably just warm weather. My mi/kWh went up by about the same amount when the temperature rose in the summer, well after my firmware upgrade (~5mo). For me, the firmware only affected my GOM leaving an extra 5mi or so after I hit one bar before turtle.

I'm sure you'll see mi/kWh go back down by December.