Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
RegGuheert said:
It is not as fundamental as you make it out to be. Two batteries can have identical kWh capacity, but if the series resistance is different, then you cannot drive two identical cars the same distance even if the conditions are also identical. That is one of the serious problems we have with discussions of the capacity of these degraded batteries. We really have NO IDEA how much the resistance has increased. To me, that is a "dirty little secret" that Nissan needs to come clean on.
This is true, and that's why the range test was important, since it demonstrated more miles traveled below the low battery warning than anticipated, as well as unexpected energy economy figures in several vehicles. Below is a photo shrink took from his Volt in Phoenix. It shows usable battery capacity from last charge in kWh. It would be great if something like this could be displayed in other vehicles, and perhaps even the Leaf.

IMG_1520.jpg
 
mwalsh said:
The one thing that has become clear is that this has become the defacto place to come for information on the LEAF. We on the forum have probably known this since the fall of 2010. But now the rest of the World knows it, and this is the place where other sites come for boots-on-the-ground knowledge and reportage. The user base here is literate, technically minded, and opinionated, and I think Nissan corporation is finally (thankfully) coming round to the notion that they ignore us at their peril. It's not too late to save the relationship between loyal and enthusistaic LEAF owners and Nissan, but it will take masterful communication and action from here on in, not platitudes and hauteur.

+1 Almost very article about the LEAF, good or bad, has direct quotes from owners on this site.
 
RegGuheert said:
Nubo said:
I disagree on this point. Though they may NOT be interchangeable at this point with LEAF, they really SHOULD be interchangeable. Miles/kWH * kWH = MILES. This is fundamental.
It is not as fundamental as you make it out to be. Two batteries can have identical kWh capacity, but if the series resistance is different, then you cannot drive two identical cars the same distance even if the conditions are also identical. That is one of the serious problems we have with discussions of the capacity of these degraded batteries. We really have NO IDEA how much the resistance has increased. To me, that is a "dirty little secret" that Nissan needs to come clean on.

Understood about internal resistance, but I would hope for that to be a calculation to be made before reporting capacity. The user wants to know how many "useable" kWH are in the battery.
 
RegGuheert said:
There needs to be a gauge, IMO. Without a capacity gauge, how can a prospective buyer assess the capability of a used EV? I predict there will be multiple rounds of legislation in the future to try to protect consumers from "battery fraud" on both new and used EVs, just like we have today related to the odometer.

The used car buyer occurred to me too, and I understand the trust issue kolmstead notes. I'm not suggesting the information be taken away, but wondering if there's a better place for it. If it were shown on Carwings, for example, you could still get the information any time you wanted (and print it out for that used car buyer, a la Carfax) but would leave the driver to focus on the capability of the car - the range - not the capacity of the battery.

Just thinking out loud, really. As long as I've worked with EVs, the drivers have always wanted more information and the automakers have always worried about giving too much, both for legal reasons and out of fear of overwhelming the less geeky. I think there's a reachable middle ground, and that the flexibility and connectivity of vehicle technology today allows for new drivers to start simple and access more information (whether on the dash, online, or in an app) as they become more comfortable. Those that don't want it don't ever have to have it.

Well beyond the scope of the current capacity issue, this group should be tapped for input on how the various types of information are best presented, and what's most useful to actual drivers.
 
Nubo said:
Understood about internal resistance, but I would hope for that to be a calculation to be made before reporting capacity. The user wants to know how many "useable" kWH are in the battery.
Agreed. But the only thing Nissan reported was a percentage of original capacity. How did they test the battery? If I had to take a guess, I would say they probably used the LA4-equivalent battery cycle they are so fond of since it makes the LEAF into a 100-mile vehicle. IF, and that's a big IF, Nissan uses that cycle for testing the batteries, then their capacity-after-so-many-years projections are basically worthless for Phoenix. The reason is that Phoenix is one big superhighway (sorry Phoenicians!) where most people drive very fast and therefore consume energy at high power. Phoenix<>LA4!!
 
evchels said:
RegGuheert said:
There needs to be a gauge, IMO. Without a capacity gauge, how can a prospective buyer assess the capability of a used EV? I predict there will be multiple rounds of legislation in the future to try to protect consumers from "battery fraud" on both new and used EVs, just like we have today related to the odometer.
The used car buyer occurred to me too, and I understand the trust issue kolmstead notes. I'm not suggesting the information be taken away, but wondering if there's a better place for it. If it were shown on Carwings, for example, you could still get the information any time you wanted (and print it out for that used car buyer, a la Carfax) but would leave the driver to focus on the capability of the car - the range - not the capacity of the battery.
It seems BEV (especially) and PHEV would benefit from some consistent automotive/electrical certification for used BEV vehicles. We are just over a year away from a lot of leased vehicles hitting the market. Not sure "buyer beware" fine print will go over. I would guess BEVs (and new PHEVs) would be leased more than bought compared to the average car for those that are going to trade up as the EV market matures.

True there is not the same for ICE only vehicles as it has been understood for decades that an older ICE will give you less MPGs. Those are probably a lot more statistically uniform than BEVs (especially) and PHEVs will be. Say EPA sticker minus 15% or some such number for ICEs after a decade.
 
evchels said:
The one that caught my attention tonight is the lessees vs owners, especially as it relates to the AZ issue. It makes sense that the owners would be more concerned about the technical impact (as opposed to the broader communication/trust concerns that I know many feel.) I'm curious whether you guys think any proposed "remedy" should be different between the two groups? If so, how?

It would depend on the remedy. IMO, owners offered to convert to a lease doesn't solve the range/loss of capacity issue and does nothing to help the lessees. A remedy of replacing the battery packs with a chemistry that can withstand high ambient temps should be for both groups.
 
Welcome to both Chelsea and Jeff; Nissan backing your presence here is long overdue, and I don't envy the job Jeff has. I have no financial interest or emotional stake in whether or not the Leaf is a success or failure, only a wish to see EVs as a whole succeed. Having dealt with a similar early adopter market a couple decades ago while selling off-grid AE systems, I've been both amazed and appalled at Nissan's approach to customer relations. If they'd deliberately set out to damage/destroy all the goodwill they'd earned by introducing the first reasonably mainstream EV, and to alienate the enthusiast early adopters who were (and should be) their best salespeople, they couldn't have done a more thorough job.

FWIW, here's my take on what needs to change:

1. Mark Perry needs to stop making statements about the Leaf. To put it as politely as I can, every time he does so he contradicts his previous statements and/or misstates facts, further damaging both his and Nissan's credibility.

2. Similarly, Carlo Bailo has to stop issuing letters to the Leaf community full of vapid platitudes and vague, weasel-worded generalities approved by lawyers and lifted direct from the owner's manual. These statements are seen as insulting and condescending by the informed, educated, technically savvy Leaf early adopter community. What is needed is not more repetition of statements along the line of 'heat, charging frequency, driving habits etc. may result in faster levels of degradation' - early adopters need and want specifics. How much heat, how long, what driving and charging habits? What is the driving range under a variety of conditions?

It's a scandal that an owner (Tony Williams) had to run his first Leaf repeatedly to turtle to provide owners with range data that should have been in the owners manual from day one. Unless Nissan engineers are far less competent than GM's (see "The Car that Could"), they had all this information. What is needed are graphs, charts and tables in the owner's manual providing the info that the owners need to maximize the Leaf's performance, utility, range and longevity. Nissan has been trying to sell the Leaf as if its customers were the same mostly uninformed mass audience for their ICEs, rather than the curious, technically knowledgeable early adopters that they are. This has to change, until EV performance, price and infrastructure has improved to the point that they will be adopted by mainstream users.

3. We need one point of contact with Nissan, and that should be you, Jeff. Tell us what you know, and don't be afraid to tell us if you don't; we'll wait while you consult the engineers who do have the answer, but be honest and open with us. And if THEY don't know, tell us that, too; we can accept it.

4. RegGuheert and others have made excellent suggestions as to steps Nissan can take to try and recover their reputation. While all those that deal with taking care of current owners are important, I see three that are most critical for re-establishing trust between the company and its customers, giving them confidence that Nissan will stand behind their cars in the long-term and isn't just interested in taking the money and running:

  • a) Admit there's a problem, and the lawyers be damned. If Nissan had done this up front and asked for the help of the customers, instead of denying, delaying and treating their customers like the ill-informed masses, they wouldn't be in this situation. It may cost them some millions of dollars in the short term, but that's far less than what continuing on their current path of denial will cost them in goodwill over the long haul. Ms. Bailo's announcement that there's nothing wrong with the batteries, but they're going to discuss compensation individually with some owners (presumably requiring them to sign NDAs as a condition of any settlement), is exactly the wrong approach if you're trying to establish a reputation for openness and honest dealing. Follow GM's lead on how they dealt with the Volt (non-) safety issue - a public statement by the CEO, 'if you want to return the car you can, no questions asked.'

  • b) Stop selling cars in Arizona and other affected areas, and only lease them for short terms and with massive pre-purchase warning to potential buyers, until Nissan develops a battery chemistry or installs an active TMS that can deal with the conditions. As long as Nissan continues to sell the car in these unsuitable areas to unsuspecting members of the public, any other steps they take to try to re-establish the company's reputation for integrity will be seen as just lip-service.

  • c) Warranty battery capacity. All EV companies will have to do this to move into the mainstream, especially while battery technology remains so immature. Large numbers of people just aren't going to take a multi-thousand dollar flyer on how long a battery may last, or what a replacement may cost.

Good Luck to both of you - You'll need it.

Edit: cleaned up typos etc., and added a little.
 
ericsf said:
Call me naive but I've decided to believe Nissan.

Ok, you're naive if you really believe that the 450 LEAFs in AZ will have at least 76% capacity after five years when according to Nissan one capacity bar loss is a 15% loss of capacity. The second bar is another 6.25% loss. So losing just two bars leaves less than 79%. There are many LEAFs with two bar losses in just a little over a year! I've met several LEAF drivers not on this forum and they didn't even notice the missing capacity bar until I pointed it out, even though they noticed a range drop. So that tells me that there are hundreds of AZ LEAFs that are around one year old that have lost at least one bar. And you're also naive if you believe Nissan's explanation because many of these one and two-bar loss cars have babied their battery packs and have odometer readings between 6000 and 12000 miles. Hmmm, if they have done everything possible to baby their packs and they still degrade much faster than 'normal' (1-4%/yr.), then I wonder what it could be??? Could it beee.........SATAN! (insert 'echo' here) or is it high ambient temps?
 
Nubo said:
RegGuheert said:
Nubo said:
I disagree on this point. Though they may NOT be interchangeable at this point with LEAF, they really SHOULD be interchangeable. Miles/kWH * kWH = MILES. This is fundamental.
It is not as fundamental as you make it out to be. Two batteries can have identical kWh capacity, but if the series resistance is different, then you cannot drive two identical cars the same distance even if the conditions are also identical. That is one of the serious problems we have with discussions of the capacity of these degraded batteries. We really have NO IDEA how much the resistance has increased. To me, that is a "dirty little secret" that Nissan needs to come clean on.
Understood about internal resistance, but I would hope for that to be a calculation to be made before reporting capacity. The user wants to know how many "useable" kWH are in the battery.
IMO - if internal resistance is high enough to significantly affect usable capacity under normal conditions (even freeway driving at 20-30kW) - that also means that the internal resistance is high enough to significantly heat up the battery pack. I don't think it's a valid concern as the LEAF's pack has been shown to be very resistant to heat-rise even when racing on the track. You can bet that the 80kW limit of the motor was chosen to help limit this under those types of conditions.


LEAFfan said:
ericsf said:
Call me naive but I've decided to believe Nissan.
Ok, you're naive if you really believe that the 450 LEAFs in AZ will have at least 76% capacity after five years when according to Nissan one capacity bar loss is a 15% loss of capacity.
That's not what Nissan said. They said that AZ cars are on a glide path to an average of 76% capacity after 5 years.

Carla Bailo said:
Based on actual vehicle data, we project the average vehicle in that market to have battery capacity of 76 percent after five years
Big difference. Without knowing the standard deviation it's impossible to tell what the typical capacity loss will be.
 
Since we're suggesting members for Chelsea's board/group, assuming he's willing I'd nominate George (GaslessinSeattle) as a representative owner who isn't directly affected by heat issues, has been enthusiastic but measured in his opinions about the car, and who is concerned that the value of _all_ Leafs is being or will be negatively affected by heat degradation.
 
drees said:
IMO - if internal resistance is high enough to significantly affect usable capacity under normal conditions (even freeway driving at 20-30kW) - that also means that the internal resistance is high enough to significantly heat up the battery pack. I don't think it's a valid concern as the LEAF's pack has been shown to be very resistant to heat-rise even when racing on the track. You can bet that the 80kW limit of the motor was chosen to help limit this under those types of conditions.
You are discussing relatively new LEAFs, not ones with degraded batteries.

In fact, there was a >50V difference in voltage at which the Phoenix range-test LEAFs turtled. You and I had originally surmised that could be due to differences in cell capacity, but Turbo2ltr correctly pointed out that it could also be due to differences in battery resistance. Since the cars were consuming about 50A of current from the batteries at the time they turtled, if ALL of the difference were due to resistance, then the battery resistance had gone up to 1 ohm. Not likely considering they start around 55 mohm when new. But perhaps they went up to 200 mohm or more. That would account for 10V of difference and would impact the range of the vehicles in a meaningful way.

The fact is that we simply do not know.

Edit: 200 mohm would only amount to about 3% less energy being delivered to the drivetrain, so I'll concede drees' point. I don't suppose it could be close to an ohm, but even that would only account for about a 10% loss.

I have to believe, however, that the battery is cooking itself pretty well even at the 200 mohm level. O.K. back to the topic at hand...
 
drees said:
I don't think it's a valid concern as the LEAF's pack has been shown to be very resistant to heat-rise even when racing on the track. You can bet that the 80kW limit of the motor was chosen to help limit this under those types of conditions.
Albeit anecdotal, I have definitely noted more heat development when driving close to turtle when compared to last year. I believe that I chimed in on an earlier discussion noting that internal resistance seems to be going up, but we din't have much evidence for it.
1
 
pchilds said:
Simple, if you get a 5 or 4 star battery report, you have not abused your car.

No, it isn't that simple. I know a guy that received 'one star' in the QC category. It seems the car records every time you connect, NOT the charging. He used his own car for QC testing (not charging) and only plugged it in to get readings. He had never QCd, yet he received the 1 star. Also, for those that do QC, they need to change the parameters for the testing. The new manual now says it isn't abuse to multiple QC in a day (old manual read just one per day).
 
evchels said:
timhebb said:
RegGuheert said:
... we as a community need to break our habit of referring to range and battery capacity interchangeably. They are not interchangeable and we are contributing to communication issues with Nissan whenever we do this.
RegGuheert has parsed another distinction critical to the dialog with Nissan, and even among ourselves, Leaf owners/lessees.
Agreed, and is relevant to something I've been wondering about. Others have noted that Nissan must really regret ever putting that capacity gauge in there in the first place, and I expect that's probably true. But Nissan deserves credit for making that type of information available, in hindsight, I think it's actually detrimental to put it in the car.

You're right on that it's range that matters, not capacity. A car either does what you need it to do, or it doesn't. But once that first bar disappears anyone would focus on it and start to perceive his car as declining, even if he hadn't noticed a range difference and the car still met his needs just fine. Even if it's completely accurate, having the gauge there at all encourages drivers to pay attention to capacity (the "data") over range (the experience). I'm even more concerned about the impact of that as the driver group expands beyond - fingers crossed - the technically-oriented early adopters.

I've no idea if Nissan plans to leave the gauge there, but I can also see them being concerned about this group's reaction if they take it out- as if they're trying to hide something after this whole AZ episode. What do you think? Would not having the gauge there be ok if you could get the information from your dealer (or maybe Carwings) if you wanted it?
timhebb said:
For his steady contributions of penetrating, insightful commentary here, I nominate RegGuheert as a member of Chelsea Sexton's global advisory board.
Noted. :)
Battery Capacity gauge is the new Odometer!

The Capacity bars are a good thing, I think there's a good argument that they should be legally required.

Consider this: (Rod Serling in an alternate gas powered Universe)
The legally required Odometer is the batery capacity bars of the gas powered world. An engine has many moving parts and the odometer indicates in some way, imperfect though it may be, the relative wear and tear on those parts.

A battery powered EV has few moving parts compared to it's gas counterparts, fewer rotating seals with liquids, etc. So an Odometer is in many respects less relevant than on a gas car. The few rotating parts in an EV are simpler designs and very long lasting, there are also fewer seals that might dry out, corrode, etc. So if I want to know the health of an EV I'm going to purchase, I'm much, much less concerned with he odometer than what is the current range or battery pack capacity of the vehicle relative to when it was new. Witness a RAV4 EV with 60,000 miles on it, still with it's 100 mile range is much more valuable than a RAV4 EV with 60,000 miles on it and 50 miles range. We have real cases of RAV4 EVs that are 10 years old similar to this! A lot of the difference is presumably how hot the batteries were doing charging and the charging regime - to 80% when it's cool or 100% in the heat of the day. Even if we don't know the responsible factors, we do appreciate the difference in battery capacity. Battery capacity also factors the variations in drivers, so if someone says - oh it still gets 100 miles, I did a round trip from San Francisco to Sunnyvale without charging - is that 100 miles on a normally 50 mile battery pack from a hyper-miler driver at 45 mph ir is that 100 miles from a lead foot race driver on a 160 mile pack? Remaining battery capacity relative to new is an essential tool in evaluating the value of any EV, particularly as a used EV market emerges.

To say we should remove a battery capacity indicator from an EV is sort of like saying we should remove both the Odometer and fuel gauge from a gasoline powered car!!

While the state of charge tells you if you are 100% charged to the current battery capacity, it is meaningless in terms of how far you can actually go without also knowing the full battery capacity at this point in the battery's life. In that sense, eloiminating the capacity meter almost argues for removing the state of charge meter... Yes, it's full, but is that a full pint or a gallon. If it was beer, you would care!! :) :)
 
ElectricVehicle said:
The Capacity bars are a good thing.
Yes, if they were accurate. On the LEAF they seem to be as pessimistic as the GOM is optimistic.
The odometer is virtually indisputable (unless it's been tampered with which I believe is a illegal). The battery capacity bars, we're not there yet.

I think there will soon be a market for independent battery testing / benchmarking. An EV buyer would need one as badly as you need a Carfax report.
 
I would like to see the battery capacity meter in future Nissan EV changed as follows:

--the capacity meter needs to be made as accurate as possible
--It should be a number from 1 to 100 percent, or the maximum available kWh from a full charge

You really need these two things for reselling the vehicle. If the Leaf and future Nissan EV are as successful as we hope, both the owner and any prospective buyer need reliable information about the state of the battery.

At the same time, I think the fuel gauge should be changed to the number of kWh of usable charge remaining. We need a lot more detailed information for a car with a short range than for an ICE vehicle that gets hundreds of miles on a "charge" and can be fully "charged" in 10 minutes. I wouldn't be without my Gid meter--it gives me a lot more confidence than some fuel bars that don't really tell me how far I can go. It appears that the accuracy of the "Gids" needs to be improved a lot also so that there isn't the marked non-linearity seen with the current system.
 
RegGuheert said:
saywatt said:
I want my battery to degrade between 7 and 10 years. The current battery did not exist 7 - 10 years ago. I can only imagine the next battery will be improved. If I'm correct, I will gladely purchase a new battery with all the money I saved not having to buy or burn oil :!: :!: :!:
So will I, but that brings up a good question for Nissan: Will Nissan provide a battery upgrade path for the 2011/2012 LEAF or will we need to move to a different vehicle to access newer battery technology?

I can't imagine Nissan would do something like that and on the slight chance that they did, it means they are building the Leaf as a "disposable" vehicle. They might as well package them up in threes like cheap flashlights. ;)

Seriously, isn't there a requirement that auto manufacturers provide parts for a car x years after they discontinue a model?
 
"Based on actual vehicle data, we project the average vehicle in that market to have battery capacity of 76 percent after five years"

Apparently this is based on average Phoenix milage of 7,500 miles per year?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079343_nissan-suggests-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-due-to-high-miles-exclusive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[UPDATE: After this article was published, Nissan used the actual mileage of the seven cars in the test to provide additional data. "The average mileage for the cars investigated was 19,600 miles, and the average in-service time was 14.7 months," wrote the company's Katherine Zachary. "Average annual mileage [of those cars] is about 16,000 per year, more than double the average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year."]
 
Back
Top