PG&E Baseline = Scam ?

[EVDRIVER]

All of my EV charging would have been at no less than Tier 4 and PG&E estimated it was going to cost me $300 monthly. Since my Nissan Altima Hybrid costs me about $100-120 a month in gas, I thought the $180 a month premium to own a plug-in was a bit much from a policy perspective.

Did PG&E happen to give you the math they used to come to this conclusion? To say that all of your charging would be at no less than tier 4 is not really an accurate statement unless your plan was to somehow stay on E1 and not go to E9A or E9B.

One thing that was mentioned in another thread was that PG&E could certainly offer hooking up a smart meter at the EVSE in series with the rest of the house. PG&E could then easily subtract the usage of the EVSE meter from the main meter to determine how much to charge for the rest of the house. That way pretty much anyone would have the choice to go to the E9B rate for the EVSE and stay on any rate they want for the rest of the house with much smaller up front cost. No idea why this is not yet available for those that are in areas that are already served by smart meters.

Here is a link to a document that mentions series metering:
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4B8FE1E8-6DB1-47BD-BC5D-01CB9A872017/0/PGEAcceleratingtheInstallationofHomeChargingEquipment.pdf

I've heard the UL approval excuse and others. In SF it would not be allowed if they even offered it, in our very non EV friendly town.

 

[Long4Leaf]

I did not look at E6 vs E9a/E9b. And I am not saying that adding an EV at E1 rates is cheaper than E9a rates. What I am saying is because you get additional baseline with E9b, the EV electrical usage will always be in tier 1 (regardless of TOU). If you add you EV electrical use to your existing usage (say your at tier 4), the the additional electrical usage for the EV will be in tier 4 (regardless of TOU). When I put it into a spread sheet, I could not get my TOU advantage (E1 vs. E9a) to offset the tier 1 vs tier 4 rates for charging my LEAF, even with the off-peak rates.

 

[Googler]

Here's one thing that PG&E could do for customers like myself who have had a smart meter for over a year. They have the data for hour-by-hour usage, so they could easily provide us with monthly rates that would have been charged under the different plans that we are eligible for. For example, I've been on E1 the last year, but it's nearly impossible for me as a consumer to calculate what it would have cost me to be under a TOU plan, even though PG&E is holding the data. They won't even release the data to me in a convenient fashion to allow me to put it in a spreadsheet. Their web site allows you to view things day by day, but there is no download feature that I can find. I also cannot connect to my own meter to collect this information.

Smart meters appear to smart only for PG&E - not for customers or for society.

 

[Spies]

If you add you EV electrical use to your existing usage (say your at tier 4), the the additional electrical usage for the EV will be in tier 4 (regardless of TOU). When I put it into a spread sheet, I could not get my TOU advantage (E1 vs. E9a) to offset the tier 1 vs tier 4 rates for charging my LEAF, even with the off-peak rates.

Long4Leaf, I totally understand what you are saying that by adding another load, as in the Leaf, to your current usage E1 rate and tier structure that you will be paying at tier 4 rates for that load.

What I am trying to help point out is that the math to compare that E1 scenario to E9A is very complicated and to hopefully not discourage people from getting an EV because of it. If you don't know what your time of use usage has been for the past year or so it is really just a guess as Googler just pointed out. I am also curious how you set you set up or acquired your spreadsheet.

Here is one spreadsheet for comparing the rates but probably needs to be updated for the current rates and of course no guarantees for its accuracy http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?s=471e81e38546f150c262ad4fe53da76e&attachmentid=712&d=1277514285

I would also be willing to share one of my E9A bills so one could see how the math is calculated.

 

[BlueSL]

Did PG&E happen to give you the math they used to come to this conclusion?

Sure, it was 750KW times .40, which is the Tier 4 rate for E1 (approx).

AGAIN, my point is that all of this could be fixed by simply changing the baseline -- something PG&E knows how to do and currently does for people with antiquated electric furnaces.

Many of you have been thinking about this a long time and have resigned yourself to PG&E's arcane rate structures. I'm suggesting rate simplicity for EVs -- because it is complete BS that the Leaf will cost the vast majority of PG&E customers 3 cents per mile absent the installation of a second meter. If EVs are to become truly mainstream, (a) the rates will need to be much more easily understood and the costs of both EVSE and meter installations reduced, or (b) EV owners will need to be given an enlarged baseline that contemplates daily battery charging. (B) is a lot easier to accomplish, if only there were the political will to get it done. After all, no trenching is required.

We're early adopters. There is a lot we will put up with. The same is not true for 95% of PG&E's customers.

 

[Spies]

Did PG&E happen to give you the math they used to come to this conclusion?

Sure, it was 750KW times .40, which is the Tier 4 rate for E1 (approx).
AGAIN, my point is that all of this could be fixed by simply changing the baseline -- something PG&E knows how to do and currently does for people with antiquated electric furnaces.

I guess I am just not going to agree with your statements and its probably best that I leave it at that. I was also trying to point out that there are advantages to the E9A rate and to not simply discount it based on the fact that the baseline does not change. I'm done here.

 

[evnow]

Many of you have been thinking about this a long time and have resigned yourself to PG&E's arcane rate structures. I'm suggesting rate simplicity for EVs -- because it is complete BS that the Leaf will cost the vast majority of PG&E customers 3 cents per mile absent the installation of a second meter. If EVs are to become truly mainstream, (a) the rates will need to be much more easily understood and the costs of both EVSE and meter installations reduced, or (b) EV owners will need to be given an enlarged baseline that contemplates daily battery charging. (B) is a lot easier to accomplish, if only there were the political will to get it done. After all, no trenching is required.

Get hold of some on the utility regulatory body and talk to them about this.

 

[gudy]

I'm not sure what you use all that electricity for. In December I charged my LEAF for 600 miles, and got a total electric bill of $25, which includes the rest of the house...

 

[planet4ever]

Wow! So how much do you pay per month for candles? :lol:

 

[EVDRIVER]

Wow! So how much do you pay per month for candles? :lol:

I was writing the same comment last night and stopped mid sentence. $25 with leaf charging, is he on PGE?

 

[EVDRIVER]

Did PG&E happen to give you the math they used to come to this conclusion?

Sure, it was 750KW times .40, which is the Tier 4 rate for E1 (approx).
AGAIN, my point is that all of this could be fixed by simply changing the baseline -- something PG&E knows how to do and currently does for people with antiquated electric furnaces.

I guess I am just not going to agree with your statements and its probably best that I leave it at that. I was also trying to point out that there are advantages to the E9A rate and to not simply discount it based on the fact that the baseline does not change. I'm done here.

Yes there are, I'm on E6 and E9A would be more expensive and for many E1 customers it will create a much larger bill. Clearly this depends on your usage. For any smart meter folks like solar customers on E6, PGE could make it very simple by changing the off peak to a E9A rate and be done with it rather than applying a generic E9A with time changes that mess up solar production times. At least it's not required to change anymore.

 

[DeaneG]

When I was inflamed a few months ago about this, I thought that PG&E could just use smartmeter data from 12am-6am to essentially create a new "account" with E9B rates and a reset baseline for EV charging. The other 18 hours of the day would be billed to the existing E1 account in the usual way.

This would simulate the E9B structure reasonably closely in software without the ridiculous need to install a second set of metering hardware at the power entry panel. C'mon guys, it's 2011 already.

The problems are: 1) CPUC has to think and act, 2) PG&E has to write some new backoffice software, 3) EVs are a drop in the bucket to PG&E and an annoyance rather than a money-making bonus.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The more people that call the PGE E9 desk and bring this up the more attention it gets. If they don't hear from people then they assume all is well.

 

[Long4Leaf]

If you add you EV electrical use to your existing usage (say your at tier 4), the the additional electrical usage for the EV will be in tier 4 (regardless of TOU). When I put it into a spread sheet, I could not get my TOU advantage (E1 vs. E9a) to offset the tier 1 vs tier 4 rates for charging my LEAF, even with the off-peak rates.

Long4Leaf, I totally understand what you are saying that by adding another load, as in the Leaf, to your current usage E1 rate and tier structure that you will be paying at tier 4 rates for that load.

What I am trying to help point out is that the math to compare that E1 scenario to E9A is very complicated and to hopefully not discourage people from getting an EV because of it. If you don't know what your time of use usage has been for the past year or so it is really just a guess as Googler just pointed out. I am also curious how you set you set up or acquired your spreadsheet.

Here is one spreadsheet for comparing the rates but probably needs to be updated for the current rates and of course no guarantees for its accuracy http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?s=471e81e38546f150c262ad4fe53da76e&attachmentid=712&d=1277514285

I would also be willing to share one of my E9A bills so one could see how the math is calculated.

Very nice spreadsheet, very detailed. But I used a very simple spreadsheet with 1) Total usage per day, 2) Percentage of use in each TOU catagory, 3) Prices from PG&E rate schedules including both summer and winter rates, 4) Baseline amounts. From this I could compare E1, E9A, and E9B. And yes, I had to estimate my TOU because you can not get any information from PG&E but this was not too hard with the help of a KILL-A-WATT meter.

But I certainly do not want to discourage anyone from getting an EV, in fact just the opposite. What I am concerned about is people getting an EV expecting to be able to charge it at 6 cents/KWhr and discovering they are really paying 18 cents. And that when summertime comes, they have a lot more peak-time usage then they thought and their summer bill is a lot higher. This could give EV's some bad PR hurting the adoption by the average person.

As has been suggested, there are simple solutions that could be easily understood by anyone. The problem is getting through the bureaucracy which needs the voice of the people.