Poor range - my range and efficiency numbers don't add up?

[schamberlin]

Hi everyone, I've got a new-to-me 2011 Leaf. My wife's been driving it on her 49.2 mile round-trip commute for the past week, and complaining of worse than expected range loss. I looked into it, and the math just doesn't add up!

From a 100% charge with 12/12 fuel bars, she drove 49.2 miles to work and back, and is now at 1/12 bars. During the same trip the guess-o-meter went from 80 to 9 - that's 71 miles of range reduction from 49.2 miles driven. :shock:

Most of her trip is on the highway at about 70 mph, with a few city streets on each end. The car says it averaged 3.7 mi/kWh for the round-trip. I checked the battery with the Leaf battery app, and capacity is at 86%.

So here's where the math doesn't add up. 86% of a 21 kWh battery is 18 kWh available. 49.2 miles at 3.7 mi/kWh is 13.3 kWh used. 13.3 / 18 = 0.74 of the battery charge used for this trip, so 0.26 or 26% should be remaining. But the car shows 1/12 fuel bar, for only 8.3% remaining. Why the big difference?

Regardless of the math, I'm pretty disappointed that the real world range from a 100% charge appears to be only about 58 miles. Yes, I know it would be higher if we used the car primarily for 30 mph trips around town to buy groceries, but that's not the case here. Thanks for any insights or advice you can offer!

 

[KillaWhat]

We call the "fuel meter" the GOM (guess o meter). It's meaningless, but you will develop a feel for it.

Peruse this forum, and you will find AMPLE information on this subject, how to drive to maximize range, Eco mode, and the whole deal.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is even a VERY comprehensive range chart.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293#p101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A quick 2 second overview.
Speed eats range non-linearly; More speed, greater RATE of energy use.
70+ EATS range. You can go 70+ (I do) but it's a choice.
Range is affected by Temperature, both High and Low. (check the range chart)


If she is making her commute and coming home with 1 bar, you scored!!
If you can find a place to plug in at work, even a simple 120 plug, even better.

I have a meter system (WattsLeft) and I can tell you at 1 bar you have a bit more battery left than you think.
Invest in one if you like to know the reality of your battery pack status.

Good Luck

 

[mwalsh]

There are actually 2.5 fuel bars remaining in your scenario. 1.5 fuel bars are "hidden" below the visible ones. So she'd be good for probably 10 miles more, based on her efficiency, before hitting turtle (pretty much what the car is already telling you). And while that may be fine for now, as her pack slowly degrades she's going to need to consider upping her efficiency to compensate, or she may find herself coming up tighter than she'd like on the same run.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the bars on the "fuel" gauge are not linear and should not be used for more than a general reference to remaining range.

slow it down. don't drive 70 if you want more range. other than that, you are home and able to refuel for the next day's journey so you are good. but slow it down to 60 and you will find you get home 10 minutes later with an extra 15-20 miles of range

 

[planet4ever]

Did she get a low battery warning? I'm guessing she didn't, but was getting close to it. The first warning comes when you still have about 17% of your battery capacity left. If you slow down to 40 or so at that point you can drive another 15 miles easily.

Ray

 

[EricBayArea]

Is this a used LEAF you purchased since you said "new to you?" If so, how many miles does it have on it?

You said you charge it to 12/12 fuel bars (big bars on the left). How many CAPACITY bars does it have (small bars on the right of the fuel bars)?

As others have said, speed eats range. 70mph will really take a toll on the range.

You said you have 86% capacity... You cannot determine that with the Nissan LEAF app so perhaps your terminology is incorrect. "Capacity" refers to the health of your battery pack. Without a 3rd party GID meter or battery meter that plugs into the car (which many have) you cannot determine the actual capacity or health of your back. The small capacity bars to the right of the fuel bars give you some insight whereas 11/12 capacity bars means you have 85% capacity left. If you have 12/12 then you have somewhere between 86%-100%... but you won't be able to know for sure without a GID meter.

 

[schamberlin]

You said you charge it to 12/12 fuel bars (big bars on the left). How many CAPACITY bars does it have (small bars on the right of the fuel bars)?

...

You said you have 86% capacity... You cannot determine that with the Nissan LEAF app so perhaps your terminology is incorrect. "Capacity" refers to the health of your battery pack.

28500 miles, 12 of 12 capacity bars remaining on the dashboard gauge at the far right. The 86% capacity I mentioned was using an ELM327 and Turbo3's battery app for Android, not the Nissan app.

The car sat overnight uncharged, then I took it out again this morning to try to wring the last electrons from it. I did a circuit around the neighborhood at about 35 mph. Hit low battery warning at 50.7 miles total distance from yesterday's 100% charge, and very low battery warning at 58.5 miles. I finally garaged it at 60.2 miles, not wanting to push it all the way to turtle mode.

The good news is there is certainly enough range for my wife to make it to work and back on a 100% charge. And she does have a charger available at work, so that's even better. All good there.

The bad news is that the useful range of the car for other trips and errands is far less than I'd thought. When we bought it, I kind of latched onto the advertised 75 mile range number as what we could expect from normal driving, with even greater range possible from careful driving or lower speeds. And I concluded 75 miles was plenty to cover most of our trips.

But now I see that to get 75 mile range you need to have a factory new battery and drive no more than 65 mph. With a two year old battery, the range chart shows a range of about 65 miles at that speed. And then I don't think 65 mph is realistic for freeway driving - even in the rightmost lane, outside of rush hour I need to go nearly 70 on the highway just to keep up with traffic and not be a hazard. So at that speed, with the two year old battery, the range chart says about 59 miles. But then you don't want to regularly charge your battery to 100%, only 80%. So with 80% charge the range is now only 48 miles. But you also don't want to routinely drive intentionally below the low battery warning, so you can keep a reserve for unexpected detours or problems. That lowers the range still further to 40 miles.

The way I see it, then, is for a person who drives the Leaf like a normal car at normal speeds without hypermiling, with a Leaf that's two years old, only charges it to 80%, and avoids intentionally driving below low battery warning, the range is only 40 miles. Which is only about half what I'd been thinking when we made the decision to buy the car

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

You said you charge it to 12/12 fuel bars (big bars on the left). How many CAPACITY bars does it have (small bars on the right of the fuel bars)?

...

You said you have 86% capacity... You cannot determine that with the Nissan LEAF app so perhaps your terminology is incorrect. "Capacity" refers to the health of your battery pack.

28500 miles, 12 of 12 capacity bars remaining on the dashboard gauge at the far right. The 86% capacity I mentioned was using an ELM327 and Turbo3's battery app for Android, not the Nissan app.

The car sat overnight uncharged, then I took it out again this morning to try to wring the last electrons from it. I did a circuit around the neighborhood at about 35 mph. Hit low battery warning at 50.7 miles total distance from yesterday's 100% charge, and very low battery warning at 58.5 miles. I finally garaged it at 60.2 miles, not wanting to push it all the way to turtle mode.

The good news is there is certainly enough range for my wife to make it to work and back on a 100% charge. And she does have a charger available at work, so that's even better. All good there.

The bad news is that the useful range of the car for other trips and errands is far less than I'd thought. When we bought it, I kind of latched onto the advertised 75 mile range number as what we could expect from normal driving, with even greater range possible from careful driving or lower speeds. And I concluded 75 miles was plenty to cover most of our trips.

But now I see that to get 75 mile range you need to have a factory new battery and drive no more than 65 mph. With a two year old battery, the range chart shows a range of about 65 miles at that speed. And then I don't think 65 mph is realistic for freeway driving - even in the rightmost lane, outside of rush hour I need to go nearly 70 on the highway just to keep up with traffic and not be a hazard. So at that speed, with the two year old battery, the range chart says about 59 miles. But then you don't want to regularly charge your battery to 100%, only 80%. So with 80% charge the range is now only 48 miles. But you also don't want to routinely drive intentionally below the low battery warning, so you can keep a reserve for unexpected detours or problems. That lowers the range still further to 40 miles.

The way I see it, then, is for a person who drives the Leaf like a normal car at normal speeds without hypermiling, with a Leaf that's two years old, only charges it to 80%, and avoids intentionally driving below low battery warning, the range is only 40 miles. Which is only about half what I'd been thinking when we made the decision to buy the car

ya that sucks. you could hope to lose more capacity real fast and qualify for a battery replacement since you still under warranty

 

[thankyouOB]

And then I don't think 65 mph is realistic for freeway driving - even in the rightmost lane, outside of rush hour I need to go nearly 70 on the highway just to keep up with traffic and not be a hazard.

you need to get over the idea that you can drive as fast as you like as a birthright; Instead, enjoy life at 62 mph or less.
(socal driver. so dont tell me about freeways.)

 

[mwalsh]

If you actually tried it, you'd find plenty of folks putting along at ~65mph in the "slow lane", and you can reserve 70mph+ as a temporary passing speed. Using ECO mode exclusively for driving will help increase efficiency too, as will not using the cruise control. Using those 3 techniques alone my efficiency in 4.7 miles/kWh and I can still get 70-75 miles from my degraded pack.

If she can do mid-point charging for a good portion of the working day, even if it's only L1, the problem sort of takes care of itself.

 

[surfingslovak]

Thanks for posting more details. To be fair, nearly every new LEAF driver who needs to commute a fair amount on the freeway struggles a bit with the range of the vehicle. In fact, one of my first posts on this forum was about that as well. Instrumentation plays certainly a big part in this, especially in older LEAFs.

That said, the energy economy you have indicated seems a bit low, and it will likely improve over time, as you adjust your driving style. I'm in my friend's LEAF at the moment, which has a lifetime economy of 3.7 m/kWh. I drove it for the past month without any compromises and my economy was 3.6 m/kWh. Contrast that with an experiment in hypermiling I did a while ago: the car achieved 6.0 m/kWh on the same commute, when I avoided freeways altogether.

Based on what I've heard from several friends, energy economy of 4.2 to 4.4 m/kWh can be achieved relatively easily, even on freeways, with some moderation. Depending on how much your economy will improve, the range can go up between 10% to 20%. I would recommend charging the car to 100%, at least initially, if it gives you more confidence. Should the LEAF be driven every day, and is parked in a relatively cool and shaded spot, charging to 100% won't impact battery life noticeably. Especially not over a relatively short period of time. Once you feel more comfortable with the range, you can experiment with 80% charging and see how it goes.

Please note that discharging to very low battery warning is not as stressful to the battery as going below the very low battery warning. This could add another 10% to range of car, if and when needed.

 

[Goodtohave]

I would like to charge to 80% but I just don't see it as practical, perhaps on the weekends when I only do short trips but for driving during the week I will have to do 100%.

I figure it is a lease and Nissan never told me specifically to do 80% (although I think after much research I know more about the car then many of the dealers). It has been cold the past week and if I want to use the heat in the mornings I am not going to wish I had charged 80%, I figure that extra 20% is the difference between no heat and heat.

 

[evnow]

I figure it is a lease and Nissan never told me specifically to do 80%....

Since you leased, absolutely no reason you can't charge to 100%. Even the battery capacity loss doesn't seem to matter much on whether you charge to 80% or 100%.

 

[Goodtohave]

The biggest help will be preheating while plugged into the level 2 in the driveway.

Unfortunately my level 2 is in a box in my basement so I am using the 110v, I assume it is not enough to run the heater and I will lose charge as I warm up. It will be installed this week!

Why I need it at this time of year is another story, was really cold and rainy this week

 

[cgaydos]

I figure it is a lease and Nissan never told me specifically to do 80%....

Since you leased, absolutely no reason you can't charge to 100%. Even the battery capacity loss doesn't seem to matter much on whether you charge to 80% or 100%.

All true. But if you want to do the best for the battery "just because" you can do the following: charge to 80% as standard practice then, an hour or so before leave on your long trip, cancel the charge timer and let it charge to 100%. This way the battery spends little time sitting at 100% and thus the negative effects of 100% are very limited.

This, by the way, is exactly what we do. Once we got used to this method it's worked very well.

 

[QueenBee]

If you need the extra range then there is no reason you shouldn't be charging to 100%. The major concern with 100% charging is letting
it sit at 100%. If the commute is regular enough the best thing to do is set just an end timer so that it will not be sitting at 100%. Preheating will help a lot as well.

I don't know enough about the numbers to verify if your math is correct but would be curious for someone to review it.

Do you know where the car was before? That much capacity loss seems like a lot for your area.

The cold weather might be impacting the capacity and is definitely make the range lower.

I would highly recommend getting comfortable with the range chart and the data that LEAF battery app is providing you and what it means. This will help you feel more comfortable with the cars range.

Obviously the EVSE at your wives work will be helpful.

Congrats and hopefully once you have had more time with the car you'll find it's limited range worth the trade off of driving an EV.

 

[schamberlin]

Do you know where the car was before? That much capacity loss seems like a lot for your area.

The cold weather might be impacting the capacity and is definitely make the range lower.

Yeah, it's a bit more capacity loss than I expected. Before we bought it, the car spent its life commuting between San Francisco and Silicon Valley. I spent quite a while chatting with the previous owner, he said he always charged to 80% with an L1 charger, and only used the DCQC about five times. I've used the ELM327 and battery app to check the capacity a few times over the past week, at outside temperatures from the mid 50's to mid 70's. The results were all between 86.7% and 85.6%.

I would highly recommend getting comfortable with the range chart and the data that LEAF battery app is providing you and what it means. This will help you feel more comfortable with the cars range.

Obviously the EVSE at your wives work will be helpful.

Congrats and hopefully once you have had more time with the car you'll find it's limited range worth the trade off of driving an EV.

Agreed, thanks. At the end of the day, the car will be fine for its intended use on her commute, so I guess I can't really complain! But I'll be eagerly awaiting some future EV model with a range of maybe 100-120 miles at highway speeds... that would really cover 99% of the driving we ever do. Or I'll just save my pennies for a Tesla.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...But I'll be eagerly awaiting some future EV model with a range of maybe 100-120 miles at highway speeds... that would really cover 99% of the driving we ever do. Or I'll just save my pennies for a Tesla.

Tesla powered Rav4 EV goes 142 miles at 65mph down the level, no wind, roadway (compared to new condition LEAF at 70F that goes 84 miles).

Current deals are here:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=210" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DeaneG]

...And she does have a charger available at work, so that's even better.

The lowest-worry mode would be to get used to charging at work. Then there would be plenty of energy left at the end of the day for heat(!), errands, detours, etc.