Sharpened my pencils and prepared to do BATTLE at work today

[scottf200]

Great job on your reply. I've gotten that email a couple times so far and responded with your similar level headed remarks.

This email is so rampant that there is a snopes page: http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A succinct response likes yours above plus a link the snopes page to show it is a widespread bogus email would work well.

 

[adric22]

Something I will be very interested to see is how some of the more minor under hood aspects hold up on the Leaf. On most cars it isn't the metal parts that go, it's all that rubber stuff. Seals, hoses, motor mounts, you name it. Since the Leaf doesn't have all that heat under they hood the rubber stuff that is there may last a lot longer. Maybe even CV joint boots. Time will tell.

Yep - Heat is hard on rubber and plastic. Just an interesting side note. The engine in the Prius is considered unusually reliable. My friend who is a Toyota mechanic said that he's never even seen one Leak oil, ever, no matter how many miles it had on it. I asked why and he wasn't sure. So next time one of the Toyota engineers was out there he asked them. Their answer was that the Prius engine does not get as hot as a typical engine does, so the seals never go bad.

 

[FairwoodRed]

Five words that will shut this guy up. - Saudi Arabia loves your attitude.

If you must say more, add that the tallest building in the world is being built from the money oil is giving Saudi Arabia.

No need muster more, or dig deeper. Memories of the Twin Towers will haunt him without being mentioned.

This actually won't work on this crowd because they see America as having plenty of oil if we would just stop blocking the drilling.

I'm finding that the more arguements I can make that are fair, well reasoned, avoid controversial topics like enviromentalism and oil drilling, and avoid name calling, the better people listen to me.

The money is probably the strongest and widest appealing case that I can make for EV's and that is usually the second thing I say when talking about the Leaf.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

This actually won't work on this crowd because they see America as having plenty of oil if we would just stop blocking the drilling.

Sure, we have TONS of oil right here. There are enough proven domestic reserves to supply U.S. consumption for three years, and if you figure in the projected finds in ANWR, OCS and Bakken that stretches out to 18 years. Eighteen years is like forever! That's plenty of time for the abiogenic production processes to finish replenishing all the reserves in Texas so production there can return to late-1960s levels. Plus there is rumored to be a large tar sands deposit under Sean Hannity's house; we should be digging that up too.

You guys are just a bunch of enviro-obstructionists pushing your left wing agenda keeping us from have a REAL energy policy.

 

[Bassman]

So, After a flurry of company emails, 3 changed thier mind and are no longer against EVs, 2 still hate them (mostly because of the federal rebate) and the most interesting one is still upset that the FED's bailed out GM - however he wishes me well with my car

You should talk to them about the oil subsidies and the real cost of gasoline. The little tax credits are nothing compared to the Big Oil subsidies!

 

[scottf200]

This actually won't work on this crowd because they see America as having plenty of oil if we would just stop blocking the drilling.

We don't need more drilling it seems.....

"USA today article states: "[USA] producing more crude oil and, for the first time in decades, has become a net exporter of petroleum products such as jet fuel, heating oil and gasoline."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2011-12-16/us-oil-boom/52053236/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DaveEV]

"USA today article states: "[USA] producing more crude oil and, for the first time in decades, has become a net exporter of petroleum products such as jet fuel, heating oil and gasoline."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2011-12-16/us-oil-boom/52053236/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Big difference between net oil import/exports and net petroleum product import/exports...

Don't make the mistake that much of the media does and fall into the trap of thinking that we've drilled our way to oil independence because we are currently a net exporter of petroleum products.

The USA currently imports about 8.7-9.0 million barrels of oil a day.
The USA currently exports about 0.8-1.1 million barrels of petroleum products a day.

Net oil related imports is around 7.7-8.0 million barrels a day.

We're gonna need a LOT more EVs to narrow that deficit.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_wkly_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

Sure, we have TONS of oil right here. There are enough proven domestic reserves to supply U.S. consumption for three years, and if you figure in the projected finds in ANWR, OCS and Bakken that stretches out to 18 years.

Perhaps a compromise is due?.. full speed oil development and efficiency increases at the same time.

 

[SanDust]

Perhaps a compromise is due?.. full speed oil development and efficiency increases at the same time.

Not seeing any "compromise". Increased efficiency decreases costs. Full speed development does absolutely nothing.

The problem isn't a lack of oil, it's the lack of cheap oil. All new domestic sources of oil cost at least $75/bbl. Most cost far in excess of that. So more oil development means you have more expensive oil coming on line which does nothing to reduce prices. For example, right now domestic oil costs about $100/bbl and foreign oil costs about $110/bbl. As a consequence, the mid-West refineries which use the domestic oil are at 100% of capacity and the coastal refineries which use foreign oil are running about 65% of capacity and are storing excess raw product. But the fact that there is excess raw product isn't placing any downward pressure on the price of gasoline.

Given that high gas prices result from the lack of cheap oil not the lack of oil per se, and given that "full speed oil development" doesn't produce cheap oil, "full speed development" is not a solution to the rising price of gasoline. This is why T. Boone Pickens and economists will tell you that you can't drill your way out of high gas prices. You have to find a cheaper alternative like natural gas or electricity or bio-fuels.

Same process for batteries. If cobalt is a relatively expensive material, you don't make cheaper batteries by finding more cobalt. You make cheaper batteries by using a cheaper material like magnesium.

 

[thankyouOB]

Perhaps a compromise is due?.. full speed oil development and efficiency increases at the same time.

typical right-wing compromise and typical puerile nonsense from our FL friend: do all of what I want and a some of what you want; even when what you want is smarter and better and cheaper.

 

[CWO4Mann]

Sure, we have TONS of oil right here. There are enough proven domestic reserves to supply U.S. consumption for three years, and if you figure in the projected finds in ANWR, OCS and Bakken that stretches out to 18 years.

Perhaps a compromise is due?.. full speed oil development and efficiency increases at the same time.

typical right-wing compromise and typical puerile nonsense from our FL friend: do all of what I want and a some of what you want; even when what you want is smarter and better and cheaper.

I don't agree that this was a "puerile" response nor a "typical right-wing compromise"; misguided or wish-fulfillment perhaps. I believe that we always will be required to compromise if we expect our republican form of government to continue - but that is a side issue to finding enough energy to continue and grow our nation capability to satisfy the needs of all people. Aside from the thought that the USA has gone too far into an authoritarian-plutocratic-socialism, the "oil crisis" continues to vex all sides. I would argue that doing the dance of "drill now" and exploitation of resources "right now" is nothing but a rush towards yet another band-aid fix to the overreaching challenge of "unlimited energy". I believe that we will have unlimited energy with the resouces to fulfill that desire, only not from petroleum products. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but I think the USA has the technology and scientific/engineering ability to make this happen -- we must find a way to push the capitalistic wall-street war-monger puppet gang-of-three-roaders and ruiners out of our way.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

typical right-wing compromise and typical puerile nonsense from our FL friend: do all of what I want and a some of what you want; even when what you want is smarter and better and cheaper.

Unlike you I prefer to refrain from saying things about people in favor of talking about ideas, but I have to say, for a guy who uses such big words your inability to recognize satire is quite remarkable.

 

[thankyouOB]

I think it was clear to most that the comment was directed at a post and the typical comments from our other FL friend, Herm. It had nothing to do with you, LT
It characterized his typical absurd claims about global warming, free markets rock, dealers dont gouge, etc. It was a comment about wrong-headed ideas and not him.
he is our very own agent provocateur, just as the world had Breitbart.

I will fix the quote marks though.
thanks for the appreciation.

 

[aqn]

Today, I got this in my inbox:

This is what Government Motors would like all of us to buy! I think NOT!
[...]
It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.

When people ask me how long it takes to charge my LEAF, I love to tell them that it takes me about five seconds. I love to see the expression on their face! Then I tell them that's exactly how long it takes me to charge the car, not how long the battery takes to get charged. I tell them: "I get out of the car, plug it in: I'm done! I don't sit there and watch it charge!"

Compare that to how long it takes to fuel up one of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles (methinks that person needs a compensator...): drive to gas station (ten-fifteen minutes), find out gas station does not carry diesel , drive to another gas station (ten-fifteen minutes), wait on line for five minutes, take seven to ten minutes to fill up the 200-gallon tank because there is another guy with a "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" compensator fueling up at the adjacent pump and competing with you for pump pressure, drive to your actual destination (ten-fifteen minutes).

 

[TomT]

True, but try towing a 10,000 pound boat with your Leaf...

Compare that to how long it takes to fuel up one of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles

 

[ENIAC]

True, but try towing a 10,000 pound boat with your Leaf...

Compare that to how long it takes to fuel up one of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles

Most of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles aren't towing any boats, they are hauling a single driver in a Mustang.

 

[JohnOver]

Something I will be very interested to see is how some of the more minor under hood aspects hold up on the Leaf. On most cars it isn't the metal parts that go, it's all that rubber stuff. Seals, hoses, motor mounts, you name it. Since the Leaf doesn't have all that heat under they hood the rubber stuff that is there may last a lot longer. Maybe even CV joint boots. Time will tell.

Yep - Heat is hard on rubber and plastic. Just an interesting side note. The engine in the Prius is considered unusually reliable. My friend who is a Toyota mechanic said that he's never even seen one Leak oil, ever, no matter how many miles it had on it. I asked why and he wasn't sure. So next time one of the Toyota engineers was out there he asked them. Their answer was that the Prius engine does not get as hot as a typical engine does, so the seals never go bad.

This makes sense since MTTF (Mean Time to Failure) doubles with every 10 deg C decrease in temperature.

 

[copdoc]

To return to the OP, with my first full month of Leaf ownership I saved $130. (I have a tiny commute -- 7 miles to work -- and we pay less for gas than much of the country.)

Surely this has to be the main message we send.

I’m saving $165 every month.

 

[Yodrak]

Not many diesel Mustangs out there.

True, but try towing a 10,000 pound boat with your Leaf...

Compare that to how long it takes to fuel up one of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles ... drive to gas station (ten-fifteen minutes), find out gas station does not carry diesel

Most of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles aren't towing any boats, they are hauling a single driver in a Mustang.

 

[Yodrak]

Good point.

When people ask me how long it takes to charge my LEAF, I love to tell them that it takes me about five seconds. I love to see the expression on their face! Then I tell them that's exactly how long it takes me to charge the car, not how long the battery takes to get charged. I tell them: "I get out of the car, plug it in: I'm done! I don't sit there and watch it charge!"

Not so good point.
- how many people have diesels?
- how many people who do have diesels don't know which of their local gas stations carry diesel fuel?

I agree that perhaps a diesel owner might have to go out of their way to get to a gas station that carries diesel fuel. For regular gasoline vehicle drivers, there are enough gas stations in most parts of the country that one can stop off at a gas station on most any routine trip without having to go out of their way.

Compare that to how long it takes to fuel up one of those "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" vehicles (methinks that person needs a compensator...): drive to gas station (ten-fifteen minutes), find out gas station does not carry diesel , drive to another gas station (ten-fifteen minutes), wait on line for five minutes, take seven to ten minutes to fill up the 200-gallon tank because there is another guy with a "360 hp and 650 ft-lbs of torque" compensator fueling up at the adjacent pump and competing with you for pump pressure, drive to your actual destination (ten-fifteen minutes).