Significant and Sudden loss of range

[druidz6]

Hi everyone, I wanted to update everyone on my problem. With all of the data I have collected, I seem to have lost around 30 miles of range. I took the car into the dealer and they ran diagnostics, upgraded the firmware, and checked capacity, and my driving characteristics. They found everything normal, and gave me a battery information sheet with "scores" for my usage habits. I came out with 5 stars out of 5 in each category. So, I thought I would bring the car home and see if by magic things had improved, or perhaps all of this was some kind of misinformation generated by some bad software state that got eradicated with a reset. Very low probability, but I have seen that kind of behavior before. Kick the TV set and it starts working again. Well, this didn't work of course. My experience since the dealer visit is described in my note to the dealer, that I just sent.

Hi Jesse,

I brought my Leaf in last Wednesday(Customer# 7924), and explained that I was having significant problems with my Leaf. In particular, that my range had suddenly decreased substantially, now typically leaving 1 bar after my 56 mile commute from a full charge. The car passed all diagnostics, and I scored 5 strs on all items on the information sheet. The firmware was upgraded. However, after two days of the same commute, I am having the exact same issue:

Thursday, I did a 56.4 mile commute, avg energy use was 5.0 mi/kwh, or 11 kwh total. and I had 1 bar with 5 miles dte. I recharged in 3.7 hours (on 220) indicating that the battery would only accept around 13.5 kwh of charge. According to the information sheet, at 5.0 mi/kwh, I should get 75 to 85 miles with 1 segment remaining.

Friday, I did a 55.3 mile commute. I hit 1 bar remaining at 49 miles. At 51 miles, I got LBW. I got home and did not charge. The car sat in the garage and today I took it out. When I turned it on today, Sunday, I had no bars, but 5 miles remaining, still at LBW, but not VLBW. I drove 2 miles to the market. When I got back in the car, I turned the car on and got an announcement that the car was operating on reduced power. The display had both a turtle and reduced power icon, after 59 miles. I had not, at that point gotten VLBW, but did about .2 miles later. I got home in turtle mode after traveling 61.4 miles. I had an average of 5 mi/kwh during that 61.4 mile trip. The information sheet says I should have a range of 95 to 105 miles to no remaining power. The information sheet is very consistent with my experience previous to a few weeks ago. However, since then I seemed to have lost around 30 miles of range. Of course this is not acceptable!

I have now had this or a similar experience at least a dozen times in a row. At this rate, I cannot trust this car to complete my commute. I have not been able to use the A/C, nor have I been able to go to lunch. You mentioned a special Nissan team that might be able to help. I would like to bring the car in, and then get a loaner car to use until this problem is fixed.

Thanks very much for your attention!

PS, another piece of data: On my way back from work, I traveled a segment of 11 miles at constant altitude (about 20 feet above sea level), and used 5 fuel bars during that 11 miles. It seems that I get very good range on my way to work, but on my way home (after just 8 hours sitting, not charging), I start losing charge rapidly.

I will post again when I get a response from the dealer.

 

[GRA]

Hi everyone, I wanted to update everyone on my problem. With all of the data I have collected, I seem to have lost around 30 miles of range. I took the car into the dealer and they ran diagnostics, upgraded the firmware, and checked capacity, and my driving characteristics. They found everything normal, and gave me a battery information sheet with "scores" for my usage habits. I came out with 5 stars out of 5 in each category. So, I thought I would bring the car home and see if by magic things had improved, or perhaps all of this was some kind of misinformation generated by some bad software state that got eradicated with a reset. Very low probability, but I have seen that kind of behavior before. Kick the TV set and it starts working again. Well, this didn't work of course. My experience since the dealer visit is described in my note to the dealer, that I just sent.

Hi Jesse,

I brought my Leaf in last Wednesday(Customer# 7924), and explained that I was having significant problems with my Leaf. In particular, that my range had suddenly decreased substantially, now typically leaving 1 bar after my 56 mile commute from a full charge. The car passed all diagnostics, and I scored 5 strs on all items on the information sheet. The firmware was upgraded. However, after two days of the same commute, I am having the exact same issue:

Thursday, I did a 56.4 mile commute, avg energy use was 5.0 mi/kwh, or 11 kwh total. and I had 1 bar with 5 miles dte. I recharged in 3.7 hours (on 220) indicating that the battery would only accept around 13.5 kwh of charge. According to the information sheet, at 5.0 mi/kwh, I should get 75 to 85 miles with 1 segment remaining.

Friday, I did a 55.3 mile commute. I hit 1 bar remaining at 49 miles. At 51 miles, I got LBW. I got home and did not charge. The car sat in the garage and today I took it out. When I turned it on today, Sunday, I had no bars, but 5 miles remaining, still at LBW, but not VLBW. I drove 2 miles to the market. When I got back in the car, I turned the car on and got an announcement that the car was operating on reduced power. The display had both a turtle and reduced power icon, after 59 miles. I had not, at that point gotten VLBW, but did about .2 miles later. I got home in turtle mode after traveling 61.4 miles. I had an average of 5 mi/kwh during that 61.4 mile trip. The information sheet says I should have a range of 95 to 105 miles to no remaining power. The information sheet is very consistent with my experience previous to a few weeks ago. However, since then I seemed to have lost around 30 miles of range. Of course this is not acceptable!

I have now had this or a similar experience at least a dozen times in a row. At this rate, I cannot trust this car to complete my commute. I have not been able to use the A/C, nor have I been able to go to lunch. You mentioned a special Nissan team that might be able to help. I would like to bring the car in, and then get a loaner car to use until this problem is fixed.

Thanks very much for your attention!

PS, another piece of data: On my way back from work, I traveled a segment of 11 miles at constant altitude (about 20 feet above sea level), and used 5 fuel bars during that 11 miles. It seems that I get very good range on my way to work, but on my way home (after just 8 hours sitting, not charging), I start losing charge rapidly.

I will post again when I get a response from the dealer.

Good luck to you. Something is definitely wonky with either one or more cells, or else your electronics (possibly just the info display). The dealer is claiming there's no problem with a cell, and that should show up on a load test. And this doesn't sound like the heat-related degradation in Phoenix et al, so I think there's most likely an issue with either the control or display electronics. In any case, take the car back to the dealer, and don't take it back until they've cycled the battery from full to empty and back again, as you did. This definitely sounds like an issue that IS covered by the warranty.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is classic Nissan.... This car obviously has a significant problem, but they hand out the 5 star data sheet and kick him out the door with "all is normal" when even the most casual observer can see otherwise.

They should just make 5 star stickers to put on every car that rolls in for diagnostics.

 

[coach81]

Hey.. first post here....

I am interested in the Leaf... now that it is available nationwide.. I live here in Louisiana, and my local dealer laughed in my face when I asked about it.. I guess I'm supposed to just support the gas guzzlin' truck that I drive (a 10 year old Frontier)... anyway.. I am obviously very concerned about seeing posts like these...

I will continue to monitor these posts and see what happens...

 

[cwerdna]

I am interested in the Leaf... now that it is available nationwide.. I live here in Louisiana, and my local dealer laughed in my face when I asked about it.. I guess I'm supposed to just support the gas guzzlin' truck that I drive (a 10 year old Frontier)...

Wow! With dealers like that, Nissan doesn't even need enemies/competitors. I guess I'm not terribly surprised given the oil industry in your state.

On a semi-related note, see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

FWIW, if I weren't for my unusual current circumstances (posted about many times before here on MNL), I'd have leased a Leaf starting awhile ago...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hey.. first post here....

I am interested in the Leaf... now that it is available nationwide.. I live here in Louisiana, and my local dealer laughed in my face when I asked about it.. I guess I'm supposed to just support the gas guzzlin' truck that I drive (a 10 year old Frontier)... anyway.. I am obviously very concerned about seeing posts like these...

I will continue to monitor these posts and see what happens...

Well, if that dealer won't sell you a LEAF, there are plenty in California who will, and ship it. I absolutely do not recommend purchasing the LEAF in anywhere that gets "hot". Just lease the car, and have it shipped to your door.

Having battery failures, like the above poster, are atypical. Losing big time battery capacity in a hot climate like yours, virtually guaranteed. A lease insulates you from the potential drop in value from trying to sell a car with 30-50% degradation. Nissan calls that "normal".

There are some great deals on leases now, and the features in a 2013 (like a heat pump for energy efficiency) you will not need there.

Remember, on the lease, you really don't care what happens to the car, except, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HAVE A LEASE EXTEND PAST THE WARRANTY !!!!!!

 

[TonyWilliams]

PS, another piece of data: On my way back from work, I traveled a segment of 11 miles at constant altitude (about 20 feet above sea level), and used 5 fuel bars during that 11 miles. It seems that I get very good range on my way to work, but on my way home (after just 8 hours sitting, not charging), I start losing charge rapidly.

I will post again when I get a response from the dealer.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, call the Nissan Hotline 877-664-2738 and tell them you are experiencing 30% range reduction. I'll bet you a nickel the first response is that "you quick charged too much".

 

[druidz6]

I am not yet about to malign the dealer. Let's face it, we Leaf owners are early adopters. There is not a lot of real world data on these kinds of cars. That said, they (Nissan and the dealer) are responsible for fixing this problem. The dealer assured me that they would. I believe them when they said that everything looked OK. They already acknowledged that I have never quick charged (info available from their diagnostics). They ran load tests, and recharged. They got what was expected for a new car.The dealer acknowledged that they did not have any more diagnostics to run, but if the problem persisted, they would refer the problem to an expert team. They gave me a printed advisory with data that they acknowledged indicated some kind of problem. I don't see an indication (yet) that they are shirking the problem, but we'll see.

Searching these forums (a helpful resource), I have found only one other person who has had a similar experience. Everyone seems to agree that this is distinctly different from the Phoenix problems.

Now, if the dealer decides to blow me off, and does not comply with my simple request, then that is another story, which I will be happy to tell. I am not a very patient person, it turns out.

 

[RegGuheert]

The dealer acknowledged that they did not have any more diagnostics to run, but if the problem persisted, they would refer the problem to an expert team.

It sounds to me as if you have a cell that is failing or a wiring issue causing high resistance in series with the battery cells. Has the dealer performed the "Cell Voltage Loss Inspection" test found in the service manual? If so, what was the outcome?

 

[Stoaty]

The dealer acknowledged that they did not have any more diagnostics to run, but if the problem persisted, they would refer the problem to an expert team. They gave me a printed advisory with data that they acknowledged indicated some kind of problem.

So they have data indicating some kind of problem, but want you to wait and see if the problem persists??? Seems like they should be calling in the "expert team" now.

 

[GRA]

Hey.. first post here....

I am interested in the Leaf... now that it is available nationwide.. I live here in Louisiana, and my local dealer laughed in my face when I asked about it.. I guess I'm supposed to just support the gas guzzlin' truck that I drive (a 10 year old Frontier)... anyway.. I am obviously very concerned about seeing posts like these...

I will continue to monitor these posts and see what happens...

Assuming it meets your other needs, if you want a BEV in Louisiana I'd seriously consider a Ford Focus EV. I think a car with active TMS is mandatory in an area like yours, until proven otherwise. Depending on your circumstances and willingness to compromise on a PHEV, a Volt is another option with an ATMS.

And whatever you decide on, lease.

 

[GRA]

This is classic Nissan.... This car obviously has a significant problem, but they hand out the 5 star data sheet and kick him out the door with "all is normal" when even the most casual observer can see otherwise.

They should just make 5 star stickers to put on every car that rolls in for diagnostics.

The 5-star rating is starting to make me think of a summer camp for kids with low self-esteem, where everyone gets a trophy for participation.

 

[Herm]

The annual battery test is how Nissan keeps track of battery issues in the field, the 5 star system is just a training tool for owners.. basically if you get 5 stars it means you are doing everything possible (in Nissan's opinion) to extend the life of the battery.. it may also be a marketing tool for Nissan and the main value is to keep track of the car..
It would be neat to see an extra field for "Ambient Temperature" and all Phoenix owners get an automatic 0 star

 

[druidz6]

Hi Sports Fans,

Here's the next chapter of the story of the missing capacity. Pretty interesting. The Nissan dealer responded to my email, and the Service Advisor, Jesse, agreed that I have a problem they need to fix. I pushed the issue today with Jesse and he promised action today. What happened next was that my wife got a call from a Nissan representative who said that Nissan wanted to give me a loaner and take back my Leaf so that they can run some extensive diagnostics that might take awhile. They indeed showed up at my house with a loaner car, and took back the Leaf. But I got a call from the Service Manager (I presume Jesse's supervisor). He told me that this action from Nissan was completely independent of my complaint to the dealer's service department about my problem, and that they got a call from Nissan Corporate who had identified my car as being of interest to their research. He made the arrangements for my car to be picked up and then he saw Jesse's request for intensive troubleshooting, and my email that jesse forwarded. He explained that Nissan had independently identified my car to be of interest to their diagnosticians, and that after reviewing my email, it seemed that my car seems to be exhibiting the behavior they were looking for.

Ok, whatever. I am pleased, but also fascinated. As many have observed on this thread, my problem seems unrelated to the "Phoenix issue." I have only seen one other complaint on this forum that relates directly to mine (from palmermd). So this seems to be a relatively rare phenomemon. The service manager was not sure how Nissan identified my car as worthy of attention.

This is how I would hope early adopters would be treated. Of course we shall see what happens next. I have to say, overall the dealer has been straight up with me so far. They were stumped, admitted it, and had the opportunity to seem even more attentive with the replacement service, but explained the real story to me.

I sure hope there is a happy ending to this story. I am cautiously optimistic.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I sure hope there is a happy ending to this story. I am cautiously optimistic.

There have been several other failures reported (not just batteries) over the past 18 months that Nissan sent a team to troubleshoot. One of the first was the Air Conditioner shutting down the car, which resulted in a major firmware update.

There's been some inverters fail. No motors, that I'm aware of. I suspect you'll get fixed right up, like all the other cars were fixed. The degraded batteries, however, I think will get a different response.

 

[RegGuheert]

There's been some inverters fail. No motors, that I'm aware of. I suspect you'll get fixed right up, like all the other cars were fixed.

Agreed. Something in this car is failing. Some other types of EVs have left their owners stranded on the side of the road, but the LEAF has proven to be very reliable transportation, even though it is out there in much greater numbers.

Nissan sounds concerned about this issue, and rightfully so. This sounds like a very serious problem and it is a concern that no trouble codes have been generated by the car or by their shop-level diagnostic equipment. If this is a failure in one of the battery cells, they probably want to retrieve that module and learn more about how it is failing. If it is anywhere else, then something may be dissipating massive amounts of heat, which could be quite dangerous.

I think *something* in your car will be replaced, but I doubt Nissan will tell what they have found in you car.

I'm glad we are not hearing many reports about problems like the one you are having!

 

[coach81]

Thank you for the update.

 

[Cheezmo]

They sent a team to investigate why my Leaf would not DCQC. The result was a replacement on board charging unit which did not solve the problem, and finally finding a bent pin on a connector.

There have been several other failures reported (not just batteries) over the past 18 months that Nissan sent a team to troubleshoot. One of the first was the Air Conditioner shutting down the car, which resulted in a major firmware update.

There's been some inverters fail. No motors, that I'm aware of. I suspect you'll get fixed right up, like all the other cars were fixed. The degraded batteries, however, I think will get a different response.

 

[coach81]

So have they solved the problem, Cheez?

 

[Cheezmo]

Oh yes, they solved it the day they replaced the charger. Don't know if they replaced a connector/cable or just straightened the pin, but it hasn't failed since.