Solar Purchase vs Lease

[greenleaf]

The Canadian Solars I have are CS6P-230PX. The spec says 230W, and measured is 211W, which is about 91.74%.
For the ET-P660230B you mentioned, spec says 230W but measured is 207.5W. This is 90.22%.

You're looking at the wrong percentage for efficiency. For all intents and purposes, those 2 panels are identical.

You need to look at power output per square meter. That's where SunPower panels have a major advantage over other panels with an efficiency of 19% compared to 14-15%. That will get you 30% more power per square meter. Yes - you will pay more for SunPower - but if you have limited roof space and you're paying top-tier electricity rates for PG&E - it's probably worth the premium.

You are interpreting my post wrongly. I didn't say this is the watt/area efficiency.

I am looking at how close the panel performs to its rated output. Both panels' spec says 230W but for one, you get 211W. With the other one, you get only 207.5W.

When you have two panels of the same area and price, the one with the higher output is more desirable.

 

[csriram45]

Any inputs on the Phono 240W panels? I am offered them at $2/watt and wondering how they compare to the Canadian Solar, ET, Schuco? Is that a good price for the Phono panels? Are they reliable

Also, based on the above posts are we saying that Canadian Solar and ET can be had for same price? Any guidance on where I can get the Canadian Solar from?

Thx

 

[greenleaf]

Let me provide some personal opinion to your situation.

Since you mentioned that your roof space is somewhat limited, you might need to consider the higher-priced area-efficient panels (i.e. has a high wattage per area).

Ask the installer for a list of panels they have. Then you can go look up the size of each panel from the manufacturers' website. Panel sizes vary; so a panel with a higher wattage output could simply because it is larger, not that it is more efficient.

The panel you install has to be listed on

http://www.gosolarcalifornia.org/equipment/pv_modules.php

The California incentives is given only to panels in the above list; if it is not listed, you will not get the CA incentive (usually not an issue since the installer typically will file the incentive for you -- and they should know better).

For my case, I was given three options last year -- either the Canadian Solar, DelSolar and YingLi (all 230W). The installer offered me the same price for all of them. So I just look at the test results under PTC conditions:

Canadian Solar = 211W
DelSolar = 205.4W
YingLi = 206.6W

I picked Canadian Solar.

If the panel wattage and prices are different, you can evaluate each panel by looking at price per watt (under PTC conditions).

 

[csriram45]

greenleaf,

I agree. I have narrowed down to 2 of these set up and both the panels below seem to have very close ratings. Unless I am overlooking something. Can the experts here recommend one over the other and why so?

Installer 1

Total System Size 3.290 kW DC Power (STC) / 2.821 kW AC Power (CEC)
Estimated Annual Production 4,789 kWh
PV Panel Description 14 x ET Solar Industry, Ltd. Model: ET-P660235B
Inverters Qty. 14 - Enphase Energy Model: M190-72-240-S02


Gross System Cost $17,000 ($5.17/watt DC, $6.03/watt AC)
CA Expected Perf-Based Buydown (EPBB) Step 8 ($987)
Installer Contract Cost $16,013 ($4.87/watt DC, $5.68/watt AC)
Federal Tax Credit/Tax Impact ($4,804)
Net Cost (year of installation) $11,209 ($3.41/watt DC, $3.97/watt AC)

Installer 2:

System Size: 3.29 STC KW PV System
14 Schuco 235 MPE PSO4
1-SB4000US Inverter and integrated AC/DC Disconnect
SUBTOTAL (Labor & Tax included) $ 22,128.94
CEC Incentive $977.00
Installer discount - 24% (more a random #)
TOTAL $16,100.00
Federal Tax Incentive $4,830.00
CUSTOMER EXPECTED COST $ 11,270.00


What do you guys have to say about these proposals? Both of them are about the same price. Question now would be which is a better panel and set up. One with ET Panel and microinverter and another with Schuco panel with SB inverter. If I knew who does a better job of installing etc. I would have gone with them but I have no idea who does it better.

 

[greenleaf]

Do you have shading problem on your roof?

Can you list who are installer 1 and 2? And are you into internet monitoring that sort of thing?

 

[ERG4ALL]

When we had our system installed, I checked on line with the Registrar of Contractors for every installation company. If there were negatives, I then confronted the installation company with what they had to say. Sometimes you have to be careful with using the ROC information because there are some people that will lodge a complaint to get work done or a concession in price that was never in the original contract. Thus, I confront the companies. The one I actually chose had a complaint. The installation company owner responded very frankly and presented both sides of the issue. What the person was complaining about, what the contract said and what the company did to resolve the issue. It turns out the response was so genuine that I used them and have been exceedingly happy with the results. I have even been a reference for the company because of my "holding their feet to the fire" and my depth of knowledge of PVs. Thus, I'd recommend taking the time to check the ROC for any installing company that gives you a bid.

 

[csriram45]

Do you have shading problem on your roof?

Can you list who are installer 1 and 2? And are you into internet monitoring that sort of thing?

No shading in roof.

Installer with ET Panels - SolCalSolar
Installer with Schuco - Captive Fuel

Captive Fuel had installed my AV dock before the EV Project install.


ERG4All - thanks for the tip. Any links to where I can find the complaints etc. I will google it but if you have a direct link it's appreciated.

 

[greenleaf]

Looks like Schuco panels are made in the US. Some people take that into consideration as a plus.

Solar installers are required to provide a long warranty in California. So picking an installer who will be around for the long haul is important to realize the warranty. But having said that, most solar installations are trouble free. Any trouble would surface in the first few months. The panels themselves should be long lasting, the weakest link are the inverters.

Since you don't have shading, micro-inverters are not really needed. Using micro-inverters was an additional ~$1000 for me last year. Could you get a discount from installer 1 if you switch to the Sunnyboy?

 

[csriram45]

greenleaf

Can you explain why the MI cost you $1000 more? I did ask Installer 1 if he would lower my price for going with SB and he said saving is about $500 or so. He also said that with Enphase MI, he is going to give me 5 years of free monitoring which runs about $175 a year.

Does that make MI worthwhile?

 

[DaveEV]

Enphase inverters cost more per watt - for example, they cost about $200/ea retail. x14 = $2800. The SMA 4000 seems to be around $2300. Prices will vary a bit, of course. I'm actually surprised your 2nd quote is using the 4000 instead of the 3000 - the 4000 is overkill for 3.29 kW of panels unless you're planning on expanding in the future (which you can't)

Edit: looks like the slightly higher voltage capability of the 4000 fits better with the selected modules - which reduces the cost-benefit of a central inverter in this case compared to micro-inverters.

Enphase monitoring costs $2-3 / inverter / year. The monitoring is great (see my sig).

I didn't see that your 2nd quote included monitoring - you need it for the CSI rebate. There should be a line-item for the SunnyBoy webbox in there somewhere, I think.

Personally - I like the Enphase system, but don't like the monitoring fee to get the detailed data. Without the fee, you can't get detailed information on the system, only net system output. One could argue about the pros/cons of a micro-inverter vs central inverter system all day.

I do think that getting panels made in the USA is a positive - in the end, I think it will be most important to get a company that will stand behind their install - both quotes you've gotten look reasonable, but it would be nice to know which company is which.

 

[csriram45]

drees - Thank you for your feedback. I did list out the name of the installers. Since the installers are doing the work I think they get the CSI rebate. I pay the price after rebate as far as I know. Are you sure the monitoring is required to get CSI rebate? I dont see that requirement anywhere and like I said the installation company gets the rebate so if its required then they need to tell me that.

The 2nd quote did mention additional $700 for web monitoring. Monitoring at the inverter level is included I was told. As far as the monitoring cost with the Enphase you were saying, is that the same thing that I am told is included for 5 years or is that a different monitoring?

 

[DaveEV]

Since the installers are doing the work I think they get the CSI rebate. I pay the price after rebate as far as I know. Are you sure the monitoring is required to get CSI rebate? I dont see that requirement anywhere and like I said the installation company gets the rebate so if its required then they need to tell me that.

Yes, at a minimum 5 years system-level monitoring is required to get the CSI rebate.

http://www.pge.com/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/csi/csimeteringperformancemonitoring/

Either the installer or the owner can claim the rebate - most installers do it as it allows them to get the up-front price lower for the customer and the customer doesn't have to worry about the paper work.

The 2nd quote did mention additional $700 for web monitoring. Monitoring at the inverter level is included I was told.

I believe you need to include the web monitoring to get the CSI rebate. See earlier link (under PMRS).

As far as the monitoring cost with the Enphase you were saying, is that the same thing that I am told is included for 5 years or is that a different monitoring?

The Enphase Enlighten monitoring service meets the CSI monitoring requirements. This would include the Envoy or EMU box and then the per-inverter online monitoring fee.

 

[ERG4ALL]

We used enphase.
I don't know the CA ROC. Google it.

 

[greenleaf]

Multiple Enphase inverters cost more than a single SMA Sunnyboy. It was about $1k more last year. My installer put in a Sunnybox 4000US for my 3.22kW DC system.

An installer I talked to mentioned that he had "some issues with the Enphase inverters whereas the Sunnyboys do not". The Enphase inverters are typically installed on the roof, underneath the panels. It could get real hot in summer whereas for the central inverter, you can site it in the shade.

The SMA Sunnyboy itself displays some very basic information on its LCD screen -- including current power output, energy produced in the day, as well as lifetime energy produced. There was no requirement for me to pay for any web monitoring; and I knew the installer was able to get the CSI rebates.

I later installed the TED energy monitor to look at energy generation and consumption.

 

[DaveEV]

Ah yes. 5-years of PMRS is only required for PBI based incentives, but since most people go for the up-front EPBB incentive online monitoring isn't required.

 

[greenleaf]

BTW, JimmyDreams has put up his TED on the web

http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar/

 

[csriram45]

Thank you for the inputs and I guess the monitoring is not a requirement for the rebate. Eitherways the installers are getting it and giving me the lower cost so if they want it they will need to install it later.

I am still split up on SunnyBoy vs Enphase.

 

[trevelan]

Has anyone in the SF bay area used 1BOG or can recommend any companies? I'm starting to call around to get estimates and would like to know people's experiences with the local installers. TIA.

 

[Gonewild]

Thank you for the inputs and I guess the monitoring is not a requirement for the rebate. Eitherways the installers are getting it and giving me the lower cost so if they want it they will need to install it later.

I am still split up on SunnyBoy vs Enphase.

I have a SunnyBoy AKA Sunpower but I would like to have Enphase because they will give you a bit more power and no shading issues.

 

[csriram45]

Has anyone in the SF bay area used 1BOG or can recommend any companies? I'm starting to call around to get estimates and would like to know people's experiences with the local installers. TIA.

Hello,

I went with 1BOG and their latest partner Real Good Solar was more expensive and the panels for this deal was a 185w panel which was or the sane price as 235w panel I could get outside. If you are interested I can hook you up with the person I am going to go with. Quiet sure his pricing would beat anyone elses. If interested PM me.