Sudden loss of range, major impact on usability

[TonyWilliams]

Thanks for the heads-up, Tony! My MY2013 LEAF-lust just dropped precipitously

What? You don't want the 25% increase in range with a 2013 model? What about the "North American styling"? Range increase from 200km to 250km !!!! (Folks, that's 155 miles on the SAME battery... only 4 miles longer than the LONGEST RANGE ever recorded)

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the Nissan marketing machine is full of BS.

Here's the bottom line. There is not much on a 2013 that you couldn't somewhat easily do to a 2011-2012. The optional 6.6kW charger isn't yet available from Phil, and the heat pump is not likely to be offered any time soon for a 2011-2012 retrofit.

The rest... leather, 17" wheels, easy. If you want a LEAF, buy it now while they're blowing them out. Don't wait.

 

[Herm]

DANGER, DANGER WILL ROBINSON !!!!
Those things are TOO hot normally. It needs to be below about 80F-100F (30C-40C).

They are only 300w, very unlikely they will overheat your battery.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Thanks for the heads-up, Tony! My MY2013 LEAF-lust just dropped precipitously

What? You don't want the 25% increase in range with a 2013 model? What about the "North American styling"? Range increase from 200km to 250km !!!! (Folks, that's 155 miles on the SAME battery... only 4 miles longer than the LONGEST RANGE ever recorded)

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the Nissan marketing machine is full of BS.

Here's the bottom line. There is not much on a 2013 that you couldn't somewhat easily do to a 2011-2012. The optional 6.6kW charger isn't yet available from Phil, and the heat pump is not likely to be offered any time soon for a 2011-2012 retrofit.

The rest... leather, 17" wheels, easy. If you want a LEAF, buy it now while they're blowing them out. Don't wait.

I think it's been a long day because I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe there will be 25% better range, or is that supposed to be dripping with sarcasm? Then you say you can upgrade a 2012 fairly easily, but none of those upgrades are available yet (some many not be anytime soon). Then you conclude with "Don't wait".

Again, I apologize if I'm the only one who's confused, but could you clarify what you're saying here because I'm getting mixed messages. And I know I'm not the only one who strongly values Tony's opinions/insights.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Thanks for the heads-up, Tony! My MY2013 LEAF-lust just dropped precipitously

What? You don't want the 25% increase in range with a 2013 model? What about the "North American styling"? Range increase from 200km to 250km !!!! (Folks, that's 155 miles on the SAME battery... only 4 miles longer than the LONGEST RANGE ever recorded)

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the Nissan marketing machine is full of BS.

Here's the bottom line. There is not much on a 2013 that you couldn't somewhat easily do to a 2011-2012. The optional 6.6kW charger isn't yet available from Phil, and the heat pump is not likely to be offered any time soon for a 2011-2012 retrofit.

The rest... leather, 17" wheels, easy. If you want a LEAF, buy it now while they're blowing them out. Don't wait.

I think it's been a long day because I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe there will be 25% better range, or is that supposed to be dripping with sarcasm? Then you say you can upgrade a 2012 fairly easily, but none of those upgrades are available yet (some many not be anytime soon). Then you conclude with "Don't wait".

Again, I apologize if I'm the only one who's confused, but could you clarify what you're saying here because I'm getting mixed messages. And I know I'm not the only one who strongly values Tony's opinions/insights.

Tony was being facetious. The supposed improvements to the range of the 2013 model have been much discussed elsewhere and appear to derive from wildly optimistic projections from use of a heat pump heater. It has been reliably reported that the 2013 LEAF will have the same battery as the earlier models.

 

[RegGuheert]

...down to around 45F.

And here's the problem with the 2013 heat pump; it works great down to about that temp, then goes to old fashioned resistance heat that we already have!

You won't save energy on a 2013 car in the winter for truly cold weather below about 45F (8C).

I just want to be sure this is not hearsay. Tony, do you have it on good authority that this is the temperature at which the resistive heater will come on in the 2013 LEAFs?

I ask because the resistive heat in our home heat pump with a super-high HSPF of 8.2 doesn't come on until about 10F. Granted, that heat pump has a gigantic outdoor unit and a car needs to pump out a large amount of power to heat a poorly-insulated car traveling at highway speeds. But I have still want to ask. TIA!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Tony was being facetious. The supposed improvements to the range of the 2013 model have been much discussed elsewhere and appear to derive from wildly optimistic projections from use of a heat pump heater. It has been reliably reported that the 2013 LEAF will have the same battery as the earlier models.

Thanks. For those of you who have been reading this forum every day for years, I'm sure that was crystal clear. For those of us who are jumping in later, there are far too many threads to possibly read them all.

...down to around 45F.

And here's the problem with the 2013 heat pump; it works great down to about that temp, then goes to old fashioned resistance heat that we already have!

You won't save energy on a 2013 car in the winter for truly cold weather below about 45F (8C).

If this is true, the heat pump is completely useless. This morning was all of 47F outside, and I didn't even reach for the heater. I don't even need the heated seats at that temperature, just a windbreaker.

 

[dgpcolorado]

^There has been much discussion of the usable range of heat pumps. Although they lose efficiency at low temperatures my impression was that the switch to resistive heating was quite a bit lower than 45ºF. It remains to be seen where Nissan will set the switchover. My guess is the 20s but I haven't researched it.

I guess we will know next spring when the first 2013 models are sold and someone lends one to Ingineer for testing.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...down to around 45F.

And here's the problem with the 2013 heat pump; it works great down to about that temp, then goes to old fashioned resistance heat that we already have!

You won't save energy on a 2013 car in the winter for truly cold weather below about 45F (8C).

I just want to be sure this is not hearsay. Tony, do you have it on good authority that this is the temperature at which the resistive heater will come on in the 2013 LEAFs?

I ask because the resistive heat in our home heat pump with a super-high HSPF of 8.2 doesn't come on until about 10F. Granted, that heat pump has a gigantic outdoor unit and a car needs to pump out a large amount of power to heat a poorly-insulated car traveling at highway speeds. But I have still want to ask. TIA!

I'm being glib (I thought it was obvious with the dripping sarcasm). I do not have a temperature that is absolute from Nissan about their pump (I doubt I would believe anything they provided without verification); I'm merely making the point that you already know about heat pumps; in REALLY cold (maybe sub freezing temps), heat pumps stop being better. There WILL BE resistance heating in addition to the pump; probably exactly the same one we have now. I'll bet the stripped LEAF "S" model doesn't have a heat pump.

So, to summarize: the car didn't and doesn't have 100 mile range for the average consumer, nor will it go 200 km in Japan for an average driver, nor will it then go to 250 km (155 miles) with a new heater.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think it's been a long day because I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe there will be 25% better range, or is that supposed to be dripping with sarcasm? Then you say you can upgrade a 2012 fairly easily, but none of those upgrades are available yet (some many not be anytime soon). Then you conclude with "Don't wait".

Again, I apologize if I'm the only one who's confused, but could you clarify what you're saying here because I'm getting mixed messages. And I know I'm not the only one who strongly values Tony's opinions/insights.

Sorry for the confusion. For folks who think the 2013 LEAF will be so super awesome that they are NOT buying a 2012 LEAF for $199-$299 lease, I strongly recommend getting the 2012 now.

UNLESS, the heat pump or optional 6.6 kW charger are required, it's silly not to get the car now, and start saving gas today.

Then, I tried to communicate that the heat pump is not the nirvana that many think it will be. Yes, it will be more efficient UNTIL the resistance heater powers up, somewhere below 45F (I do not have a hard number, sorry... It might be 25F or 35F). Also, a 6.6kW charger works at the same speed as the 3.3kW one, when you go to sleep... overnight. If you need quick opportunity charges during the day, it might be for you. Otherwise, go with a 2012 (that will likely be upgradable to 6.6kW in aftermarket kits in the future).

Everything else on a 2013 can easily be added to a 2011-2012; leather, etc. The remote control charger door should be upgradable, too.

 

[GRA]

I think it's been a long day because I'm not sure I'm following you here. Are you saying you believe there will be 25% better range, or is that supposed to be dripping with sarcasm? Then you say you can upgrade a 2012 fairly easily, but none of those upgrades are available yet (some many not be anytime soon). Then you conclude with "Don't wait".

Again, I apologize if I'm the only one who's confused, but could you clarify what you're saying here because I'm getting mixed messages. And I know I'm not the only one who strongly values Tony's opinions/insights.

Sorry for the confusion. For folks who think the 2013 LEAF will be so super awesome that they are NOT buying a 2012 LEAF for $199-$299 lease, I strongly recommend getting the 2012 now.

UNLESS, the heat pump or optional 6.6 kW charger are required, it's silly not to get the car now, and start saving gas today.

Then, I tried to communicate that the heat pump is not the nirvana that many think it will be. Yes, it will be more efficient UNTIL the resistance heater powers up, somewhere below 45F (I do not have a hard number, sorry... It might be 25F or 35F). Also, a 6.6kW charger works at the same speed as the 3.3kW one, when you go to sleep... overnight. If you need quick opportunity charges during the day, it might be for you. Otherwise, go with a 2012 (that will likely be upgradable to 6.6kW in aftermarket kits in the future).

Everything else on a 2013 can easily be added to a 2011-2012; leather, etc. The remote control charger door should be upgradable, too.

While being as skeptical as Tony about Nissan's range improvement claims, to my mind there's a huge difference in value between a heat pump that works down to only 45 as opposed to 35 or 25 deg. At OAT's of 45, that's useful in the Bay Area much of the time, but as already mentioned you can probably do just fine with a light sweater/jacket and the seat heaters, and maybe not need the cabin heat (especially if you pre-heat). 35 degrees is getting really valuable, because there aren't that many days along the bay shore that go below that. And 25 degrees will mean that the heat pump is giving extra range almost all the time in a water-moderated climate like the Bay Area's.

Now, if you live in the middle of the continent where winters get down well into the single digits or lower, even a heat pump efficient down to 25 degrees isn't going to help you much in winter, but may make a significant difference spring/fall.

We'll just have to wait to find out how valuable the 2013's heat pump is.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Now, if you live in the middle of the continent where winters get down well into the single digits or lower, even a heat pump efficient down to 25 degrees isn't going to help you much in winter, but may make a significant difference spring/fall.

We'll just have to wait to find out how valuable the 2013's heat pump is.

My thinking is that if it doesn't help in the coldest part of the winter, does it really matter that it helps in the spring/fall? Maybe, maybe not.

For example, if one cannot make their commute in the dead of winter with a 2012 Leaf, they still won't in a 2013 Leaf. The car is still a poor fit for them.

On the other hand, for those with short commutes, it allows for longer trip around town in the spring/fall, but maybe you have to take the second car in the winter.

Either way, the worst-case range is the same. And psychologically, the worst-case range is the most important. People cannot drive a car they don't have, and the heat pump probably won't convince many people in a cold climate to take the plunge.

 

[GRA]

Now, if you live in the middle of the continent where winters get down well into the single digits or lower, even a heat pump efficient down to 25 degrees isn't going to help you much in winter, but may make a significant difference spring/fall.

We'll just have to wait to find out how valuable the 2013's heat pump is.

My thinking is that if it doesn't help in the coldest part of the winter, does it really matter that it helps in the spring/fall? Maybe, maybe not.

For example, if one cannot make their commute in the dead of winter with a 2012 Leaf, they still won't in a 2013 Leaf. The car is still a poor fit for them.

On the other hand, for those with short commutes, it allows for longer trip around town in the spring/fall, but maybe you have to take the second car in the winter.

Either way, the worst-case range is the same. And psychologically, the worst-case range is the most important. People cannot drive a car they don't have, and the heat pump probably won't convince many people in a cold climate to take the plunge.

Agree that worst case range is the criteria for commuting, however you also need to take into account the fact that speeds are lower in winter when it gets really cold, which partially compensates for the reduced range due to heater use. That being said, I'm firmly of the opinion that any BEV that will be routinely operated in one or both temperature extremes should have a TMS, to keep the range changes due to battery temp and/or degradation to a minimum. I wouldn't buy or lease a Leaf in some place like Chicago if my normal driving took me anywhere close to max range in moderate temperatures.
Edit: Here's a trip in temps around freezing in the U.K.:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1070998_whats-the-range-of-a-2012-nissan-leaf-in-winter-we-find-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clearly beyond a reasonable range for anyone using a cabin heater (either kind), but the heat pump might make it possible to use it and get to the en route recharging point. BTW, that article was linked from this one:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1080044_polite-reminder-as-it-gets-colder-your-plug-ins-range-may-drop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[gbarry42]

Something was dripping. I thought it was sarcasm. This line was the confirmation for me:

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the Nissan marketing machine is full of BS.

What I gather from this discussion is, that if I get 50 miles on an 80% charge when not using my resistive heater, then I shouldn't expect much of an increase in an 2013 while not using the heat pump? :mrgreen:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Something was dripping. I thought it was sarcasm. This line was the confirmation for me:

Just in case it wasn't obvious, the Nissan marketing machine is full of BS.

What I gather from this discussion is, that if I get 50 miles on an 80% charge when not using my resistive heater, then I shouldn't expect much of an increase in an 2013 while not using the heat pump? :mrgreen:

Yep.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I wouldn't buy or lease a Leaf in some place like Chicago if my normal driving took me anywhere close to max range in moderate temperatures.
Edit: Here's a trip in temps around freezing in the U.K.:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1070998_whats-the-range-of-a-2012-nissan-leaf-in-winter-we-find-out" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"We've proven it is possible to drive a Nissan Leaf 80 miles in freezing conditions at mostly freeway speeds, but only if you don't use the on-board heater.

Using our own experience, we estimate that keeping our car’s cabin at a toasty 70 degrees would have cost us around 25 miles in range, requiring a mid-trip recharge.

If you’re planning a winter trip in your Leaf, we’d advise you plan a recharge stop every 50 miles if you want to stay warm and make good progress.

But if cold weather doesn’t faze you, it’s possible in moderately cold weather to travel well beyond the EPA’s official 73 mile range estimation."

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Using our own experience, we estimate that keeping our car’s cabin at a toasty 70 degrees would have cost us around 25 miles in range, requiring a mid-trip recharge.

I don't even keep my house at 70 degrees during the winter, and I'm always more bundled up in the car. What is the cost of keeping the car at 60 degrees?

 

[Herm]

People, single stage R134 heat pumps (as I think the Leaf will have) have equivalent efficiency to an electrical resistance heater down to 0 deg F (-18 deg C) and much much better at higher temperatures.. in practice the evaporator at the front of the car may freeze up so the Leaf may have to use some resistance heating to clear the ice, if they bother with that and not just shut off the system. Perhaps it will work at even lower than 0 deg F if the car is moving at high speed and has more air to work with..

So in conclusion, the heat pump in the 2013 will be an advantage down to 0 deg F. Its a good option to have for you artic hell dwellers.. luckily the coldest it gets in Timbuctu is 55 degrees F.

How about a 12V electrically heated motorcycle vest?.. 150W is all they consume.

 

[TomT]

You'd last about one week before divorce in my household! :lol:

I don't even keep my house at 70 degrees during the winter, and I'm always more bundled up in the car. What is the cost of keeping the car at 60 degrees?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

You'd last about one week before divorce in my household! :lol:

I don't even keep my house at 70 degrees during the winter, and I'm always more bundled up in the car. What is the cost of keeping the car at 60 degrees?

you artic hell dwellers..

I wouldn't expect you guys to understand why some people enjoy cold climates, but how about some respect? I will never understand how someone could live in Phoenix....

For the record, I lived in Palo Alto, CA for a few years and know what it's about. The monotonous weather drove me crazy! I want to look out my window and see snow, not drive 4-5 hours up to Tahoe...

Anyway, back on topic, it is not uncommon in places that get cold for people to be more tolerant of the cold. Honestly, 70 degrees is a pain in the winter. I want to be comfortable outside when it's -10 without having to strip off 20 layers every time I step inside. The same is true in a car. I strongly suspect that many people will be more than happy with 60 degrees in the car (or less), especially with heated seats/steering wheel and already wearing a winter jacket to boot.

I am looking forward to learning more about how this car truly performs in the winter cold. It seems the only people here who have any direct experience with that are the handful from Colorado. That will obviously change dramatically over the next 6 months...

 

[Rauv]

I am looking forward to learning more about how this car truly performs in the winter cold. It seems the only people here who have any direct experience with that are the handful from Colorado. That will obviously change dramatically over the next 6 months...

I agree and will be anxiously waiting to see what cold Minnesota winter will hold for my Leaf.