Tax Credit Clarification Needed

[SanDust]

Car dealerships should not be commenting on AMT or tax details in any way, the most they should disclose is that there are credits available and one should "consult their tax professional" for details,

If they can tell you credits are available they can tell you they either are, or are not, subject to the AMT. What is "complex" about this? It's very straightforward. In practice they'll use your suggestion and tell you about the credits in order to close the sale but then conveniently neglect to mention the AMT part. How convenient.

You see the same thing with the EVSE credits. Lots of advertising saying you can get a tax credit but nothing pointing out, even in the fine print, that the credits are subject to the AMT.

No one is asking them to do your taxes for you. However, dissemination of selective pieces of information can be misleading, and in this case they're intentionally trying to mislead you into thinking you can get a credit that you may or may not be able to get. You may think this is fine but, as applied to the earlier tax credits for hybrids, it was just another sleazy car dealer practice.

An honest practice would have been to say: "There is a $3500 tax credit for this car. But the credit is subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax. " After that they can say "you'll need to figure that out" or "consult your tax professional" (as if most people have one of these) or whatever else they want to say. But at this point they've alerted you to the possibility that you wouldn't be able to take advantage of the credit. They've been honest and how it's up to you to figure it out.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Except that the rules DID NOT change. All he's saying is that, while the earlier credits were always subject to the AMT, he didn't figure this out until he filed. So he messed this up. I'm sorry about this but really the Toyota salesperson should have alerted him. Shame on Toyota for not making clear that the credits were subject to the AMT. You don't need to be a tax expert to point this out.

Given that a brief amount of research should show that the credits for the Leaf are not subject to the AMT, I'm not sure what "NEW" information he's brought to the table, other than simply adding to the confusion by suggesting that they somehow are subject to the AMT.

This seems more subtraction than addition, which may be the reason for the frosty reception.

First, I certainly didn't want to "subtract" from anything. I did say it was my first posting here also, which I was hoping would alert people that I'm not an expert here, and probably confused. And, the search function I tried to use here did not work for me.

Second, the Prius tax credit was always portrayed too as "not subject to the AMT." Both from Toyota and the IRS, if I remember correctly. That tax credit had just come into effect in 2006 and nobody had ever filed for it when I purchased the Prius. And even though the Prius tax credit was "subject to the AMT," and if both Toyota and the IRS said it, I have never payed the AMT so I shouldn't have had anything to worry about. Yet, at least back then, even though you weren't needing to pay the AMT, through the "Tentative Minimum Tax" they were able to keep people from getting the refund.

So somewhat, what I was trying to add was that people here should be extremely careful so that they will get the tax credit that they deserve. The $7500 is a lot of money, in my opinion, and I would truly hate to see anybody make a costly mistake. Also, at least for this year at this point in time, the income levels subject to AMT have not been updated by Congress, so many, many more people could be subjected to it.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The best solution is to take part next year off work and avoid AMT Earn just enough to owe $7500 in taxes.

 

[Rat]

I have known some car salespeople who are pretty smart, but most are not and have no tax training, interest, or reason to learn the tax law. I once was a tax lawyer and I don't even know what's going to happen with the tax credit for the Leaf. I've been subject to AMT in the recent past but wasn't last year or the previous year. The law can change. I don't know whether I'll be taking delivery this year or next. I don't know what my income will be next year, although I do for this year pretty much. The bottom line is that it's almost a crap shoot. Tax advice is not the dealer's responsibility and in any event even if they knew of the AMT risk they have a motivation NOT to tell you, or to tell you that you do qualify for the credit anyway, since that is likely to make you more likely to buy. Their job is to sell you a car, not improve your life. I've had car salesmen lie to me about a number of things (such as features or alleged shortcomings of other brands). Unless they make a misrepresentation about their product, they can say almost anything to get you to buy. Believe any salesman at your peril. Caveat emptor and all that.

 

[planet4ever]

Please, SanDust, there is no need to be so belligerent. If you check back, you will see that you had not previously provided any documentation for your claims, and that I (not sub3marathonman) had asked if you could show us where this was documented.

Thank you for providing a pointer to an IRS document. I think I am now convinced of what I was fairly sure of before; that AMT will not interfere with the credit if the vehicle is for personal use. Unfortunately the accuracy of the page you point to is a bit suspect because it says, immediately before the sentence you quoted:

For vehicles acquired for personal use, report the credit from Form 8834 on the appropriate line of your Form 1040, U.S. Individual Income Tax Return.

That is clearly wrong, because the instructions for Form 8834 state specifically that it applies only to two and three wheeled vehicles and to low speed vehicles (up to 25 MPH). However, since the document lists Tesla and Coda, it was obviously intended to address freeway-capable EVs like the LEAF.

Finally, and most important, sir, your personal attacks against sub3marathonman are completely uncalled for. I do not believe that he is an idiot, nor that he is spouting garbage or sowing FUD. He had a real problem in the past, and I think his concern is genuine. You, on the other hand, need to learn to control what you write. Your tone makes your words more suspect than his.

 

[mwalsh]

OK, so someone answer me this simple question (S3MM himself, if he likes).....if S3MM is so interested in getting a LEAF...why 12 posts to this thread and 0 anyplace else. Huh?

Me? The first place I go is the new members area, to introduce myself. Then I maybe post a few tentative questions about some of the things I still don't understand about the car. NOT "Hey, you're not getting the tax credit because you don't understand the way it works!".

 

[sub3marathonman]

OK, so someone answer me this simple question (S3MM himself, if he likes).....if S3MM is so interested in getting a LEAF...why 12 posts to this thread and 0 anyplace else. Huh?

Me? The first place I go is the new members area, to introduce myself. Then I maybe post a few tentative questions about some of the things I still don't understand about the car. NOT "Hey, you're not getting the tax credit because you don't understand the way it works!".

First, that's not what I said in my first post. Go back and read it. With a bit of thinking, you might understand that I was stating my experience with the PRIUS tax credit, and ASKING what the situation was with the new EV tax credit. And, in my last post, I stated that most of my subsequent posts were trying to explain my first post.

I did post a couple of times "thank you" to somebody who genuinely tried to help. And it is true that I didn't consult mwalsh if that was OK to do.

Second, unlike mwalsh, I don't go searching the Internet to try to figure out if somebody has posted something somewhere about being interested in a Leaf or posting about THINKING of selling a 5-year-old Prius. That is extremely creepy. Did mwalsh find out about my "new pool?"

Now, wxxyz can verify, if necessary, that I have already asked to resign my membership here. Hopefully this thread can be locked and the couple of jerks, that's mwalsh and SanDust if they can't figure that out, can find something else to do.

And remember, all that really had to be said in reply to my first post was that it has been discussed before and here is the link to that thread. But, obviously that is beyond some lowlifes.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Car dealerships should not be commenting on AMT or tax details in any way, the most they should disclose is that there are credits available and one should "consult their tax professional" for details,

If they can tell you credits are available they can tell you they either are, or are not, subject to the AMT. What is "complex" about this? It's very straightforward. In practice they'll use your suggestion and tell you about the credits in order to close the sale but then conveniently neglect to mention the AMT part. How convenient.

You see the same thing with the EVSE credits. Lots of advertising saying you can get a tax credit but nothing pointing out, even in the fine print, that the credits are subject to the AMT.

No one is asking them to do your taxes for you. However, dissemination of selective pieces of information can be misleading, and in this case they're intentionally trying to mislead you into thinking you can get a credit that you may or may not be able to get. You may think this is fine but, as applied to the earlier tax credits for hybrids, it was just another sleazy car dealer practice.

An honest practice would have been to say: "There is a $3500 tax credit for this car. But the credit is subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax. " After that they can say "you'll need to figure that out" or "consult your tax professional" (as if most people have one of these) or whatever else they want to say. But at this point they've alerted you to the possibility that you wouldn't be able to take advantage of the credit. They've been honest and how it's up to you to figure it out.

Bottom line is customers blame dealers when they misunderstand or something changes. It's not the role of a dealer but certainly an option, ask a dealer all the ways that type of info gets them in trouble.

 

[wxxyz]

Enough fighting - no one cares. If you want to continue your arguement, use the PM feature.

 

[garygid]

No, I care.
The "bottom line" here is that several of you have mistreated "sub3...", and I am VERY disappointed in our moderators for not stopping the misquoting and personal attacks. Those participating in these attacks should know better!

 

[walterbays]

Obviously the moderator isn't concerned with upholding the alleged rules of this forum.

As someone who is not a moderator, I'd like to speak up for the moderators. I think there are several of them who help out the founder of the forum, and they have day jobs too. I have seen them and other people come to the defense of new members who get attacked, to answer questions without condescension, and to re-direct threads to more appropriate topics.

The basic "problem" is the wild popularity of Leaf. (I think we can live with that basic problem, eh? Just as half the Leaf reservation holders reserved on the first two days, so half the members here may be real old timers who have been through all the questions too many times, and whose patience waiting for answers and for Leafs is running thin. The other half are relative newcomers like you and me (I reserved 8/31.)

Some people seem to view this forum rather like a Leaf wikipedia - an organized compendium of information about Leaf. When the forum was small in the beginning, that probably worked pretty well and it's probably the reason that you can find so much good information here by browsing the structured topics. Others view the forum rather like a big chat room where everyone joins in an unstructured discussion. Of course the former group gets annoyed when a newbie posts a rehash of an old question in the wrong place, breaking the informational structure and introducing clutter that makes it harder to find information. And the latter group gets annoyed at their hopeless attempts to control free discussion.

Any time you write anything on any public computer forum, someone is going to flame you. They'd never shout at you on the street. They'd be polite and call you friend. But the distance and pseudo anonymity here just brings out the flames. I'm sure you must have seen it before elsewhere. Ignore that part and you'll also find a few people who will give you invaluable information about your new purchase and about your participation in changing America's energy future. I think it's worth it.

And thanks to the moderators who try valiantly to bridge the gap between a Leaf wikipedia and a Leaf chatroom. They make this a much better place whichever way I view the information here on any given day.

 

[wxxyz]

Perhaps I was hasty in my response - but I didn't have an hour to read through all the back and forth fighting to try and make a judgement on who was in the right or wrong.

 

[mgoleta]

This thread seems to have gotten out of hand. Is it possible for the moderator please delete the off topic posts that don't clarify, correct or provide additional information related to the topic of this thread?


As a moderator I do not believe in removing any posts unless they are offensive or spam (there is) since that ends up leading to a forum where moderators end up shaping the opinions of views of the threads. On other forums I moderate some mods wanted to delete threads because some opinions were not the same as others and mods "thought" the individuals were "trolls" or company insiders, etc. This tended to drive away legitimate posters and some of those mods would research these people and even track their IP address, and other forum activity. I think this is not the way to promote free speech and diversity of opinion but rather form a private club. For those that do not like the opinion or anything another member has to say please feel free to ignore that poster as I can assure you that is the easiest and quickest way to solve the problem.

As a moderator, I would like to remind people to please try to stay on topic as much as possible and to take personal gripes to your PM where you can discuss privately if needed. I would also encourage people to try their best to keep thread topics together when possible and simple questions to existing threads rather than new ones, they will get answered quickly I can assure.

Let's refocus this thread-

Thank you.

 

[mgoleta]

Met with my accountant. The opinion is for personal use the federal tax credit for the LEAF is not currently limited by AMT. The opinion is the federal tax credit for installing a charger is limited by AMT. I can not speak for business use since that wasn't the question I asked.

The final rules for AMT have not been decided for this year. Congress can still change them. If you care about this contact your representative and let them know how you feel about it. Put the same passion into that as everyone seems to have about this forum.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The final rules for AMT have not been decided for this year. Congress can still change them. If you care about this contact your representative and let them know how you feel about it. Put the same passion into that as everyone seems to have about this forum.

Good advice, this has worked on other forums and has had a real result.