The 62kWh Battery Topic

[DougWantsALeaf]

I don't think we have quite figured out the bms. What's interesting is that my 9/2019 built (June 2020 purchase) S+ us still at 98.33%. It's next adjustment is due in mid August.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I don't think we have quite figured out the bms. What's interesting is that my 9/2019 built (June 2020 purchase) S+ us still at 98.33%. It's next adjustment is due in mid August.

I wish we could find out what soc the car was sitting at while on the lot

 

[cwerdna]

One thing that has been striking to me has been that, in my mind, Infiniti had a hard-fought reputation as offering good innovative luxury vehicles with good performance for discerning buyers. However, Infiniti did not step up and take the risk and offer a good long-range luxury (whether entry-level or higher) BEV competitor.

It's funny that you mention that about Infiniti. The G35 coupe had quite a following esp. during the Nissan 350Z heyday but from most of what I've seen in the US automotive press over the years, seems like Infiniti hasn't done well in terms of both perception and recent US sales.

Skim these from:
2012: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/01/consumers-see-fewer-differences-among-car-brands/index.htm
2019: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/08/13/ford-honda-toyota-car-brands-with-most-loyal-customers/39925835/
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/10/infinitis-sales-slump-is-a-bit-alarming-even-among-a-month-of-declines-across-the-board/
2020: https://www.motor1.com/news/391248/infiniti-usa-sales-2019-decrease/
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/why-do-people-say-the-infiniti-brand-has-gone-downhill-these-days/

Hmmm, I just looked up Infiniti's US sales and it seems like they had a significant decline for 2019 and a small one for 2018 but prior years weren't bad.
2019: https://usa.infinitinews.com/en-US/releases/release-cfee7660ab7a459d89fd043ccbe06d4d-infiniti-usa-reports-december-2019-sales down 21% vs 2018
2018: https://usa.infinitinews.com/en-US/releases/release-4ffb48c763b5431ca3fb03455b47faea-infiniti-reports-u-s-annual-sales down 2.7% vs 2017
2017: https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/nissan-group-reports-december-and-2017-calendar-year-u-s-sales up 10.9% vs 2016
2016: https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/nissan-group-reports-december-and-2016-calendar-year-u-s-sales up 3.6% vs 2015
2015: https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/nissan-group-reports-december-and-2015-calendar-year-u-s-sales up 13.8% vs 2014

And, Leftie's right, this LE Concept from 2012 never shipped: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093578_infiniti-le-electric-luxury-sedan-to-be-built-after-all-with-higher-range.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100386_infiniti-sees-no-demand-for-luxury-electric-cars-before-2020 is kinda amusing now we've seen what's happened leading up to 2020. Oops.

I guess you could say....This is the result of failed leadership at Nissan and lack of investment in R&D?

Maybe lack of investment in R&D, or wrong investments or just lacking the sense of urgency needed? Or... they just don't see a need for urgency and hope that others do the heavy lifting to bring the prices of batteries and other systems down so that they can eventually win by attrition and watch others implode? I'm guessing that's what Toyota's up to.

Of course, the bet could be wrong and competitors may not implode...

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I can only guess a desire to jump on some short term profits at the expense of long term strategy. Infinity just was milking the models it had without vision.

I would have never bought a nissan if it wasn't for the Leaf. I am not sure I am staying with the brand after this round of cars.

I do feel like the cars are good values in their discounted form. I think honestly that is Nissan's nitch. Import quality at a value price. That applies to Inifinity as well. Premium brand for value premium price.

 

[jlsoaz]

Well, adjustment #3 is in the books and I am now "around" 93¾% or so @11,180 miles. This is worse than my 40 kwh at the same time (94.77% and 12,133 miles . I was expecting less since overall, the stress on the pack would be less and it's easier keep the SOC in the reasonable range below 65% and the pack is cooler on longer trips but it appears that that hasn't made much difference.

Now my 40 went on to lose 6.89 % in the first year but then lost only .62% the next 9 months before I traded up.

Thanks. A main point I get from this is not trying to read for worse or better, but just to understand that sometimes the empirical data may come out different than the armchair pre-estimates, and that helps underscore that it's good to have the information. Kind of "trust, but verify".

 

[cwerdna]

I can only guess a desire to jump on some short term profits at the expense of long term strategy. Infinity just was milking the models it had without vision.

I would have never bought a nissan if it wasn't for the Leaf. I am not sure I am staying with the brand after this round of cars.

I do feel like the cars are good values in their discounted form. I think honestly that is Nissan's nitch. Import quality at a value price. That applies to Inifinity as well. Premium brand for value premium price.

Perhaps... I've never been a follower of Infiniti.

I've been somewhat of a fan of Nissan for a very long time. I'd bought two Nissans new prior to leasing my 1st Leaf. I'd always liked Maximas so I happily bought one in late 2001. I'd cross-shopped Camry V6, Accord V6 and Acura TL back then.

I bought a 350Z a few years later. There was nothing else I was considering seriously, at the time.

jsloaz: FWIW, Google for infiniti brand declining sales reputation to see what I'm talking about.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I can only guess a desire to jump on some short term profits at the expense of long term strategy. Infinity just was milking the models it had without vision.

I would have never bought a nissan if it wasn't for the Leaf. I am not sure I am staying with the brand after this round of cars.

I do feel like the cars are good values in their discounted form. I think honestly that is Nissan's nitch. Import quality at a value price. That applies to Inifinity as well. Premium brand for value premium price.

Perhaps... I've never been a follower of Infiniti.

I've been somewhat of a fan of Nissan for a very long time. I'd bought two Nissans new prior to leasing my 1st Leaf. I'd always liked Maximas so I happily bought one in late 2001. I'd cross-shopped Camry V6, Accord V6 and Acura TL back then.

I bought a 350Z a few years later. There was nothing else I was considering seriously, at the time.

jsloaz: FWIW, Google for infiniti brand declining sales reputation to see what I'm talking about.

As part of LAB, we weren't told specifics although we were told about the 40 kwh pack but its my opinion, the car was shelved because the pack wasn't ready in time which bears out since it didn't make it to the LEAF until 2018. But they were pretty far along on the development end of things and Andy Palmer told us it was "all but certain"

But then he left the company to run Aston Martin and the car was never heard from again.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Dave

Has your latest adjustment remained steady? What are your max gids down to with the change? Do you notice a few miles taken off the GOM?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dave

Has your latest adjustment remained steady? What are your max gids down to with the change? Do you notice a few miles taken off the GOM?

I don't do full charges enough to really say at this point. Right now I am still relocating so out of town trips will be minimal at least until the end of the month. At least I have temporary shelter for now.

 

[jlsoaz]

As part of LAB, we weren't told specifics although we were told about the 40 kwh pack but its my opinion, the car was shelved because the pack wasn't ready in time which bears out since it didn't make it to the LEAF until 2018. But they were pretty far along on the development end of things and Andy Palmer told us it was "all but certain"

But then he left the company to run Aston Martin and the car was never heard from again.

I am not clear what LAB is or whether you're talking about the Infiniti BEV that did not come about, but when I realized that Infiniti was not going to come through, it solidified my view that Nissan did not properly understand the arguments for competing in the longer-range BEV segment at that time. They were, at that time, in my view, committed to short range BEVS, but not committed to BEVS overall in a way that would have (in my view) turned out better for them and their customers.

 

[cwerdna]

I am not clear what LAB

Leaf Advisory Board: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10267.

A few folks on MNL (not me) were members for a year. There have been others who are international and/or not on MNL who've been members. In the past, they'd switch out the members each year.

I've posted twice about meeting up with evchels (https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=28398&p=553437&hilit=evchels#p553437 and https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=28398&p=553425&hilit=evchels#p553425).

 

[salyavin]

Well, adjustment #3 is in the books and I am now "around" 93¾% or so @11,180 miles. This is worse than my 40 kwh at the same time (94.77% and 12,133 miles . I was expecting less since overall, the stress on the pack would be less and it's easier keep the SOC in the reasonable range below 65% and the pack is cooler on longer trips but it appears that that hasn't made much difference.

Now my 40 went on to lose 6.89 % in the first year but then lost only .62% the next 9 months before I traded up.

This is disappointing. You drive a lot but not so many DCFCs in a row, you live in an even nicer climate than I do for an EV. Hopefully it levels off. I too figured with the additional cells we'd see less loss of health. Most of our driving is as you say is within a nicer area of the battery as well.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I am hoping that the BMS is just adjusting buffer to 8-10% of battery. This would be consistent with the other car makers. What is interesting is that Kia/Hyundai/Audi/etc. all remove it from usable before you get the car. Tesla/GM/Nissan do it some time after you start driving the car. If 8%, that would put the usable down to 57kWh. If 10% 55.8kWh. With 100% SoH at 59 and change kWh, or 96% and 94% minus any real degradation. Maybe lettimg the user prime the battery for the first 6 months helps in the long term...or just allows for better epa.

So my hypothesis is then that each battery bar is actually worth the same, and the top 7% is actually claimed by the buffer in the bms. From 94 down you are at natural degradation.

 

[GiantTortoise]

I am hoping that the BMS is just adjusting buffer to 8-10% of battery. This would be consistent with the other car makers. What is interesting is that Kia/Hyundai/Audi/etc. all remove it from usable before you get the car. Tesla/GM/Nissan do it some time after you start driving the car. If 8%, that would put the usable down to 57kWh. If 10% 55.8kWh. With 100% SoH at 59 and change kWh, or 96% and 94% minus any real degradation. Maybe lettimg the user prime the battery for the first 6 months helps in the long term...or just allows for better epa.

So my hypothesis is then that each battery bar is actually worth the same, and the top 7% is actually claimed by the buffer in the bms. From 94 down you are at natural degradation.

I've wondered something similar. Partly since the first battery bar doesn't drop until ~85%, then future drops are at ~5% intervals, it seems like Nissan doesn't consider that first 10% to be "real" degradation.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Its 7 1/2 % per bar. Which fits even better. 100-93.5% burn in in battery. Then 7 1/2% per bar there after.

 

[jlsoaz]

I am not clear what LAB

Leaf Advisory Board: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10267.

A few folks on MNL (not me) were members for a year. There have been others who are international and/or not on MNL who've been members. In the past, they'd switch out the members each year.

I've posted twice about meeting up with evchels (https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=28398&p=553437&hilit=evchels#p553437 and https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=28398&p=553425&hilit=evchels#p553425).

Ok, thanks, I know what the Leaf Advisory Board is.

 

[cwerdna]

Its 7 1/2 % per bar. Which fits even better. 100-93.5% burn in in battery. Then 7 1/2% per bar there after.

Source?

 

[lorenfb]

Its 7 1/2 % per bar. Which fits even better. 100-93.5% burn in in battery. Then 7 1/2% per bar there after.

Source?

Data for Leaf II is extremely limited, since few have exceeded SOH loss of greater than 5-10%. Given that, extrapolating degradation info is basically meaningless/anecdotal.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Its 7 1/2 % per bar. Which fits even better. 100-93.5% burn in in battery. Then 7 1/2% per bar there after.

No one has reported that in the 40 or 62 kwh pack and I know someone who is at 90% SOC and still has 12 battery bars...or pips (Prius version) or segments.

At this point, I know of no one who has lost a bar and the lowest 40 kwh I know of was around 88%. I will try to see what his updated figure is since its been a while since I saw him post his numbers.

BUT...
Previously, the bars were

1; 15%
2-11 6¼%
12 (as if anyone would ever find out) 12-13% which is a guess based on the 8½ to 9¼% hidden capacity

EDIT

Jennifer Sensiba reports 86% SOH at 65,000 miles and still 12 bars.

For background, she was a gig driver in Phoenix and charged to full (or near it) during the hottest part of the day to be able to drive in the evenings so definitely a car to watch. She is now in New Mexico where its cooler (is there a place to go that is hotter??)

 

[cwerdna]

Its 7 1/2 % per bar. Which fits even better. 100-93.5% burn in in battery. Then 7 1/2% per bar there after.

No one has reported that in the 40 or 62 kwh pack and I know someone who is at 90% SOC and still has 12 battery bars...or pips (Prius version) or segments.

At this point, I know of no one who has lost a bar and the lowest 40 kwh I know of was around 88%. I will try to see what his updated figure is since its been a while since I saw him post his numbers.

BUT...
Previously, the bars were

1; 15%
2-11 6¼%
12 (as if anyone would ever find out) 12-13% which is a guess based on the 8½ to 9¼% hidden capacity

I can vouch for the '11 service manual having the table with the values at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/#Battery_Capacity_Behavior under "Battery Capacity Behavior". It disappeared from service manuals of later model years and don't know if it ever returned.