Updated information from ECOtality San Diego 5/26/2011

[Randy]

I might add that the DOE grant money is based on a reimbursement system. Less installations means less reimbursement. The motivation is to install as many as reasonably possible to recoup the equipment and installation costs...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I went to the meeting this morning. Probably the biggest bit of news for me was the Dec 31, 2011 sunset clause on free charges and subsidized installs. Currently, the limits are $2250 for a pedastal mount and $1500 for a wall mount.

There was a talk by Pam D. of Destinations Hotel and Resorts, who are installing L2's at 3 properties. They have an deal setup with Enterprise Car Rental For daily or hourly LEAF rentals at their hotels.

Kohls will have L2's at 3 locations; Chula Vista, Santee, and San Diego. Best Buy is still out there on the horizon. Intuit and San Diego County Water have private L2's. The existing public chargers at Balboa Park and The Lodge at Torrey Pines. I didn't hear mention of the Pala Casino install. He did mention that they sell the Blink for $3000 outright.

Walter from Car2go told us that 300 membership rental electric cars will be roaming around downtown SD by the end of the year.

Mike F. of CCSE said there were a few dozen EVs in SD at the end of last year. Now there is 750, 1000 by year end, and 3000 next year.

Ecotality is actively looking for L3 hosts along major transportation corridors. Their L3 has 2 "hoses"; one can be reconfigured to a future SAE style. Comes with 42 inch monitor. Revenue sharing is 50/50 between host and Ecotality. Rates are negotiated from a suggested base rate, and can be amended after contract signing.

Half the cost of install and the entire EVSE/charger comes fro
Dept. of Energy ARRA money (stimulus money). Torrey Pines was a $17k install that only cost them $1k out of pocket.

Public chargers doesn't mean public in the sense you might be accustomed. It can be restricted to employees and customers.

They would like to have 1300 level 2 and 30 level 3 chargers by years end. Because the EV project is a study, they will be collecting data through April 30, 2013. They may remove lightly used chargers then.


EV Project ends April 30, 2013.

 

[TRONZ]

I might add that the DOE grant money is based on a reimbursement system. Less installations means less reimbursement. The motivation is to install as many as reasonably possible to recoup the equipment and installation costs...

Not yelling at you Randy but.... YES, WE KNOW! WHY HASNT ECOTALITY FIGURED THIS FACT OUT AS WELL??? NO PUBLIC WORK COMPLETED = NO PAY = THEIR FAILURE!!!

Sorry for yelling but this topic makes me feel like I'm on crazy pills.

 

[Herm]

That's why I think I'll drive up to the Pala Casino some time and charge, even though I'm not much of a casino patron. And when Walgreens installs their high priced charging stations I'll visit them. And what I'm really looking forward to is L3 stations at Arco. I'll pay that fee (and let the folks paying $100 to fill their SUV's see me fill up . In time I expect merchants will undercut one another, and L2 charging will mostly be a shopping amenity, like free parking. After all, the electricity costs less than the ground the car is sitting on. I expect we'll see lots of paid charging, free with purchase at participating merchant.

I like your attitude Walter, very realistic.

 

[TRONZ]

I went to the meeting this morning. Probably the biggest bit of news for me was the Dec 31, 2011 sunset clause on free charges and subsidized installs. Currently, the limits are $2250 for a pedastal mount and $1500 for a wall mount.

There was a talk by Pam D. of Destinations Hotel and Resorts, who are installing L2's at 3 properties. They have an deal setup with Enterprise Car Rental For daily or hourly LEAF rentals at their hotels.

Kohls will have L2's at 3 locations; Chula Vista, Santee, and San Diego. Best Buy is still out there on the horizon. Intuit and San Diego County Water have private L2's. The existing public chargers at Balboa Park and The Lodge at Torrey Pines. I didn't hear mention of the Pala Casino install. He did mention that they sell the Blink for $3000 outright.

Walter from Car2go told us that 300 membership rental electric cars will be roaming around downtown SD by the end of the year.

Mike F. of CCSE said there were a few dozen EVs in SD at the end of last year. Now there is 750, 1000 by year end, and 3000 next year.

Ecotality is actively looking for L3 hosts along major transportation corridors. Their L3 has 2 "hoses"; one can be reconfigured to a future SAE style. Comes with 42 inch monitor. Revenue sharing is 50/50 between host and Ecotality. Rates are negotiated from a suggested base rate, and can be amended after contract signing.

Half the cost of install and the entire EVSE/charger comes fro
Dept. of Energy ARRA money (stimulus money). Torrey Pines was a $17k install that only cost them $1k out of pocket.

Public chargers doesn't mean public in the sense you might be accustomed. It can be restricted to employees and customers.

They would like to have 1300 level 2 and 30 level 3 chargers by years end. Because the EV project is a study, they will be collecting data through April 30, 2013. They may remove lightly used chargers then.


EV Project ends April 30, 2013.

Not to point out the million pound gorilla in the room but... any explanation about public infrastructure???

 

[DaveEV]

Ecotality is actively looking for L3 hosts along major transportation corridors. Their L3 has 2 "hoses"; one can be reconfigured to a future SAE style. Comes with 42 inch monitor.

Any pics of said L3 charger? Having a 42" monitor seems quite excessive unless you're going to be watching movies on it. It would also seem to be a prime vandal target - when just about all crappy LCDs on just about every gas station pump I've visited has been tagged, nearly every single bathroom wall/mirror and windows of businesses tagged, I fail to see a 42" monitor lasting long out in the wild unless under constant surveillance. It's a sad fact of the times - I really wish it weren't so.

Seems like it'd be much more cost effective to use the new low cost Nissan L3 charging stations.

 

[wsbca]

Revenue sharing is 50/50 between host and Ecotality. Rates are negotiated from a suggested base rate, and can be amended after contract signing.

Was there any substantial discussion of this base rate and negotiation stuff? What if a business doesn't want to charge its customers anything (ie. there is no "revenue" to split)? That possibility was certainly discussed, even pitched as likely, last summer... Do they still have to pay Ecotality an ongoing amount based on utilization? (I'm going to guess yes, if they want their "free" taxpayer provided charger 'maintained', kept hooked to the network etc.) If they want to charge just what they pay out of pocket for the actual juice, do they effectively have to double that rate to create an equal share for Ecotality?

Maybe a business that wants to provide charging as a pure enticement at their own expense will ultimately be financially better off just buying and operating their own EVSE and bypassing the extra middleman (Ecotality)?

 

[walterbays]

Go to the McDonalds in PB, I think it's on Grand, I think it's a Chargepoint.

It's only an L1 though.

Chargepoint lists L2's at the Mercedes dealer off Balboa, and at Qualcomm HQ. I think the Qualcomm unit is intended mainly for employees and is normally in use during the day, though it is listed as free. I don't know whether there is access to the parking garage after hours or on weekends for non-employees. I do want to test it or the Mercedes location some time so that I can verify that my Chargepoint card works before I might venture a trip up to LA - Chargepoint territory.

Current maps show Chargepoint centered in the San Francisco Bay Area with sizable presence in LA, and Blink centered in San Diego and barely getting started.

 

[walterbays]

But...but... isn't paying $1.06 a kWH sending exactly the wrong message in terms of demonstrating market forces to them? Surely it's not literally worth that much to you. Wouldn't it be better to let those units sit idle until they lower the price? They've already made the investment - what possible value is there in reinforcing the unrealistic pricing scheme?

Certainly at that price, equivalent to $6/gallon, it would only be worth it to me as an emergency alternative to a tow truck. If I really wanted to go to Pala, I'd drive the gas car.

But what's the right message? I'd like them to see me and know EV's can drive there and charge, and that I'm glad they installed the chargers. I'd like other businesses to see charging stations being used and paid for, and think about installing some themselves - though I doubt if I'd make a return trip to the casino. And then if Barona Casino installs charging stations and charges half as much as Pala, or comps them to customers, I'd like Pala Casino to think that I'm over there charging - and probably dropping $1,000 on the blackjack table.

 

[ttweed]

The concerns (and rants) are regarding the failure of installing public chargers with public money. The Government was very specific that public infrastructure was a VITAL condition of being awarded the grant. They have failed to live up to that agreement.

The public part of the infrastructure may be vital, but it was not the major reason or singular mission of the EV Project. I think you are mistaken in this assumption. The subsidy of 8,300 private EVSEs to support the deployment of the first wave of Leaf and Volt vehicles delivered was specified by the DOE as a goal of the project, actually overshadowing the 5,000+ public charging stations to be installed with the funding. And logically, which comes first? Until there is a large base of deployed EVs, there is no reason or need for public infrastructure. Ecotality has turned their attention to the public installations in the last quarter, after helping to provide incentives in the form of free charging stations to 2,000 of the first adopters of the Leaf and Volt EVs over the last year. This was an essential and necessary first step in the process, and the data gathered from participants will be used and analyzed "to characterize vehicle use in diverse topographic and climatic conditions, evaluate the effectiveness of charge infrastructure, and conduct trials of various revenue systems for commercial and public charge infrastructures. The ultimate goal of The EV Project is to take the lessons learned from the deployment of these first 8,300 EVs, and the charging infrastructure supporting them [which is both public and private], to enable the streamlined deployment of the next 5,000,000 EVs." To think that the sole purpose of the DOE funding was to support the installation of public charging infrastructure is a misconception. I do not share your belief that "They have failed to live up to that agreement." Neither does the DOE, apparently, as they awarded the EV Project an additional $15 million in June of 2010, after the initial $99.8M award in August of 2009. With industry partner matches, the total value of the Project is now approximately $230 million.

Yes, I wish it could all be happening faster, but we also wished the Leaf could be rolled out quicker as well, and we have all gotten frustrated and angry over the pace of deliveries at one time or another. Just as in the case with Nissan, I think we have to keep in mind the unique and revolutionary nature of this undertaking. It is unlike anything that has gone before, and there are no proven methods and techniques to rely upon. Both companies are inventing the process as it develops, from whole cloth. I think I would give them at least a C- grade in accomplishing the project goals, not a total "Fail."

YMMV,
TT

 

[KeiJidosha]

The concerns (and rants) are regarding the failure of installing public chargers with public money. The Government was very specific that public infrastructure was a VITAL condition of being awarded the grant. They have failed to live up to that agreement.

The public part of the infrastructure may be vital, but it was not the major reason or singular mission of the EV Project...

This was an essential and necessary first step in the process, and the data gathered from participants will be used and analyzed "to characterize vehicle use in diverse topographic and climatic conditions, evaluate the effectiveness of charge infrastructure, and conduct trials of various revenue systems for commercial and public charge infrastructures. The ultimate goal of The EV Project is to take the lessons learned from the deployment of these first 8,300 EVs, and the charging infrastructure supporting them [which is both public and private], to enable the streamlined deployment of the next 5,000,000 EVs."

EXACTLY! If EV Project fails to install the public infrastructure, the conclusion of the usage data will be that public charging was not used or desired. This is the baseless conclusion the MINI E study came to when they wired the cars to be incompatible with legacy charging structure. It was a conclusion steered by lack of choice. In addition to failing the financial and milestone requirements of the contract, EV Project is contaminating the data.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not to point out the million pound gorilla in the room but... any explanation about public infrastructure???

They're looking for hosts for L3's.... step right up !! My hunch is that there will not be very many L3's coming from Ecotality.

Andy did mention in a break out meeting that an L3 would be unveiled in about 3 weeks. He said where, but I don't remember where he said. Plus, I guess I'll believe it when I can plug into it (and it doesn't cost $50 to do so).

Tony

 

[TonyWilliams]

Ecotality is actively looking for L3 hosts along major transportation corridors. Their L3 has 2 "hoses"; one can be reconfigured to a future SAE style. Comes with 42 inch monitor.

Any pics of said L3 charger? Having a 42" monitor seems quite excessive unless you're going to be watching movies on it...........

Seems like it'd be much more cost effective to use the new low cost Nissan L3 charging stations.

I suspect you'll be watching infotainment/commercials/advertising on that 42". Yes, there were pics. Pretty much just looked like every other gas pump.

Yes, the Nissan one looks very promising, without sharing 50% of your income with Ecotality.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Revenue sharing is 50/50 between host and Ecotality. Rates are negotiated from a suggested base rate, and can be amended after contract signing.

Was there any substantial discussion of this base rate and negotiation stuff? What if a business doesn't want to charge its customers anything (ie. there is no "revenue" to split)? That possibility was certainly discussed, even pitched as likely, last summer... Do they still have to pay Ecotality an ongoing amount based on utilization? (I'm going to guess yes,

I think the business is going to pay to give away free charges. The base rate was $1-$2 per hour for L2, split 50/50.

Maybe a business that wants to provide charging as a pure enticement at their own expense will ultimately be financially better off just buying and operating their own EVSE and bypassing the extra middleman (Ecotality)?

On Jan 1, 2012, when no more free chargers and subsidized installs are available, I suspect that will absolutely be true.

 

[TRONZ]

We are all on the same team (I think) and rowing in the same direction (I think). But let's keep it objective. Ecotality is bumping into the end of their charge station incentives. They have installed about a dozen stations at one site in SoCal. It would appear that besides some of the retailers mentioned, that will be it. That will be the sum total of Ecotalities public chargers in SoCal. Dec 31 will be here in a flash. On that date all speculation will end and we can do the final count.

The point I am trying to make is that infrastructure did not fail. The strategies of the companies trusted with doing the work failed. It's time to move on to companies with a better strategy.

 

[wsbca]

But...but... isn't paying $1.06 a kWH sending exactly the wrong message in terms of demonstrating market forces to them?

Certainly at that price, equivalent to $6/gallon, it would only be worth it to me as an emergency alternative to a tow truck.

Sorry for harping on this, but I think it's important....it's only equivalent to $6/gal for someone who (only has) an ICE car that gets 18mpg....for me, it's the current market equivalent of $14.85 a gallon (.33/mile vs .09/mile)...and, since gas is not $6 yet, the break-even vs. gas (which someone said some casinos give away for free?) is with a vehicle that gets 12mpg...so with the exception of Hummer drivers with low tire pressure and a heavy foot, who happen to also own Leafs (!?!), the only incentive being presented is to keep driving your ICE, which, in my opinion, is not in the public interest for a whole host of reasons.

Hence, my agitation at the scheme that has been set up, where the project seems to not actually be promoting/facilitating EV usage. As noted in some other responses, it seems like it's (unnecessarily) rigged to generate dismal results (or, they're deluded as to the profit potential - either way it's a threat to adoption). They don't need to "study" whether someone will pay 4X what they pay for gas...it's clear a priori that they won't, not in significant numbers. Why not start somewhere in the middle and work outward? L2 at $1/hr is break even for an efficient ICE owner...AND much more expensive than what they pay when they are within EV range of home, so even that only factors in for out of range trips - I'd argue that for an urban setting, still too expensive to measure realistic long term behavior.

 

[davewill]

We are all on the same team (I think) and rowing in the same direction (I think). But let's keep it objective. Ecotality is bumping into the end of their charge station incentives. They have installed about a dozen stations at one site in SoCal. It would appear that besides some of the retailers mentioned, that will be it. That will be the sum total of Ecotalities public chargers in SoCal. Dec 31 will be here in a flash. On that date all speculation will end and we can do the final count.

The point I am trying to make is that infrastructure did not fail. The strategies of the companies trusted with doing the work failed. It's time to move on to companies with a better strategy.

I actually hope that some sort of extension can be worked out. If you go through that report it's not hard to see that what has been spent, besides the residential installs, is all of the R&D. To drop all that on the floor seems wasteful to me.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I actually hope that some sort of extension can be worked out. If you go through that report it's not hard to see that what has been spent, besides the residential installs, is all of the R&D. To drop all that on the floor seems wasteful to me.

I wonder how many public chargers would be installed (to study, per the contract) if there was not a profit motive for Ecotality?

To go to a business, and say, "here's free everything, just buy the electricity, and we'll be back on April 30, 2013 to collect our equipment".

 

[gbarry42]

We got a call this morning at work from the property management company, wanting to know if there were any EV drivers working here. I called them back. It seems ECOtality contacted them to find out if they might qualify for...well, you know. I take this to mean that perhaps with the end of the year coming, ECOtality may finally be beating the bushes to try to find places to put L2 chargers. Let's hope. That's my impression; you may interpret this as you like. I made sure the person there understood my enthusiasm, and the fact that a number of other employees have expressed interest in my LEAF. To the effect that the presence of an EVSE on site would significantly affect their next-car-buying decision. I've applied gentle pressure to my employer from this side, and I think it's time to apply a little more.

 

[TRONZ]

I actually hope that some sort of extension can be worked out. If you go through that report it's not hard to see that what has been spent, besides the residential installs, is all of the R&D. To drop all that on the floor seems wasteful to me.

Ecotality is in control of Ecotality. These businesses created their own "unique market strategy" for infrastructure and it has apparently failed. Is this the markets fault or the fault of a unique business strategy? Being pragmatic, I am going to side with the market on this one. Why has Ecotality not modified their business approach? Is a failed strategy worthy of extending? With $230 million in market cap and so much R&D, why have they not simply funded L3 Blink demonstration sites themselves? Don't they believe in their product and what they are doing? If they believed in the profitability of their very own business strategy then why are they not falling all over themselves to own sites themselves?

An extension? I disagree.

IMHO, After the grant award, Ecotality was simply the victim of strategic acquisition. These happen every day. ECTY is a publicly traded company so anyone can buy it. XOM is 1500 times larger and concerned shareholders could provide matching funds "strategy control" in ECTY with pocket change. Then its just a matter of following the three D's: Delay, Disrupt and Dismantle. We are witnessing the Delay, Disrupt phase of this particular strategic acquisition (Dismantle appears to be 2013). The sad thing is that general management and employees never know what is really going on. They just know that owners placed the bar up at failure height, they are frustrated and things are not going well. Sorta like EV1 salesmen under GM.