smkettner
Well-known member
For me the only comparison to Leaf is Mitsubishi i and Ford Focus electric.
For the Volt you can compare it to any American car.
For the Volt you can compare it to any American car.
What is a true comparable car to the LEAF and Volt?
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Herm
Well-known member
smkettner said:
Thats like saying a Leaf is like a golf cart, technically its true but shortsighted
Devin
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
The criteria here is based on a somewhat arbitrary assessment of driving feel, size similarity, and likeliness of cross-shopping customer. The Golf fits most because it's a diesel, so it will attract a technology/fuel economy focused buyers, it's roughly a similar body style and dimensions as the Leaf, and it's available with most of the same options.
With my Prius I would constantly get the "why wouldn't you just buy a Corolla" argument yet with the Leaf I have yet to hear anything like that. People seem to be interested in the car on a different level than just to compare with economy cars - and most of the people I've spoken with that are considering purchasing a Leaf would never have even thought about buying a Cruze or a Versa. They don't even know what those cars are.
In fact, the most common non-Prius car I hear people are considering when they ask me about my experiences with the Leaf is a BMW 3 series. The only reason I can think of is that the 3 series is the de facto luxury/sport commuter car and at prices in the $30ks attracts a slightly more affluent buyer yet is still affordable by the middle class masses. The Leaf fits better into that profile than it does into one of pure economy.
lpickup
Well-known member
+1 for the Ford Focus comparisons. I think that may end up being a pretty good comparison point.
I've actually started putting together a spreadsheet of different cars and what it would cost to outfit them with similar features to the LEAF. Where a particular option is not available from the manufacturer, I do go with aftermarket prices, but those are all over the place as well (e.g. seat heaters can be as cheap as $30 (really?) to $300, so there must be some huge quality difference). Also if the # of necessary aftermarket mods gets huge I just give up and say the car is not a good comparison to the LEAF. After all the car would start to look like Frankenstein with a zillion 12V adapter wires and LCD screens scattered about the cabin! Another option is that if a given option is not available on that particular model, I look and see what it costs on higher end models of the same make. Sometimes I may have to REDUCE the cost of a given comparison car because it has a feature not available on the LEAF (e.g. power seats). Basically I'm approaching this similar to a home appraisal.
One of the things that I like about the LEAF (hopefully anyway--we'll see in a few years) is it's reliability and quality of construction. So I've been trying to find a Japanese comparison point. For Toyota, I've been looking at the Matrix. I don't know that I've seen one of these close up or not, but what do you feel about this as a comparison to the LEAF? I've calculated its equivalent cost at $24665 (just over $5000 cheaper than the LEAF with tax credit). Using my estimated miles per year, my electric rates, and the Matrix's combined fuel economy I'm calculating a "payback" of 25 months.
I've actually started putting together a spreadsheet of different cars and what it would cost to outfit them with similar features to the LEAF. Where a particular option is not available from the manufacturer, I do go with aftermarket prices, but those are all over the place as well (e.g. seat heaters can be as cheap as $30 (really?) to $300, so there must be some huge quality difference). Also if the # of necessary aftermarket mods gets huge I just give up and say the car is not a good comparison to the LEAF. After all the car would start to look like Frankenstein with a zillion 12V adapter wires and LCD screens scattered about the cabin! Another option is that if a given option is not available on that particular model, I look and see what it costs on higher end models of the same make. Sometimes I may have to REDUCE the cost of a given comparison car because it has a feature not available on the LEAF (e.g. power seats). Basically I'm approaching this similar to a home appraisal.
One of the things that I like about the LEAF (hopefully anyway--we'll see in a few years) is it's reliability and quality of construction. So I've been trying to find a Japanese comparison point. For Toyota, I've been looking at the Matrix. I don't know that I've seen one of these close up or not, but what do you feel about this as a comparison to the LEAF? I've calculated its equivalent cost at $24665 (just over $5000 cheaper than the LEAF with tax credit). Using my estimated miles per year, my electric rates, and the Matrix's combined fuel economy I'm calculating a "payback" of 25 months.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
smkettner said:
Actually, I'd take the Focus off the list, for now.
Until Ford commits to significant production numbers, I just don't think you can make any reasonable depreciation assumptions about this BEV, in order to calculate total ownership costs.
In 5 or 10 years, will the Focus EV be a desirable rare collectible BEV, or just another used BEV, but one for which aftermarket parts, or qualified repair and maintenance, are very hard to find?
LTLFTcomposite
Well-known member
Once you have driven the Leaf (or comparable EV if you could find one) you realize there is no comparison to gas cars. No noise or vibration and effortless acceleration. Also faster than most gas cars in 0 to 40, which is more meaningful than 0 to 60 time, because you almost never accelerate from 0 to 60. Near perfect weight balance makes good handling.
If these are the attributes you value is there any gas car for any amount of money that compares?
If these are the attributes you value is there any gas car for any amount of money that compares?
Comparing electrics to ICEs is very hard. They're just different. Even for the same size and finish, electrics are smoother and quieter and are very quick. If forced, for the Leaf I'd say a mini-Cooper and for the Volt I'd say a BMW 535i, but it's a very inexact comparison, especially for the Leaf. (If the Leaf had a nicer interior and didn't fade after 40 MPH it could compete with the BMW 3 series.)
Probably better to let the market tell you, which you can do by looking at what vehicles the owners used to drive and cars and what cars have similar customer satisfaction numbers. I think GM has said that 50% of all Volt buyers are moving from a BMW and Nissan has identified former Prius drivers as the main pool for Leaf buyers, so that seem like a good place to start. In both cases there are pluses and minuses. The Leaf is a better Prius than a Prius. It uses less gas, is more quiet, is smoother, and a whole lot faster off the line. It's also can't go on a trip. As compared to a BMW 5 series, the Volt is quieter and smoother and quicker off the line, but it doesn't handle as well and is considerably smaller.
These may not be the best comparisons but they are vastly better than comparing a Leaf to a Versa or a Volt to a Cruze. Those are just silly comparisons.
Probably better to let the market tell you, which you can do by looking at what vehicles the owners used to drive and cars and what cars have similar customer satisfaction numbers. I think GM has said that 50% of all Volt buyers are moving from a BMW and Nissan has identified former Prius drivers as the main pool for Leaf buyers, so that seem like a good place to start. In both cases there are pluses and minuses. The Leaf is a better Prius than a Prius. It uses less gas, is more quiet, is smoother, and a whole lot faster off the line. It's also can't go on a trip. As compared to a BMW 5 series, the Volt is quieter and smoother and quicker off the line, but it doesn't handle as well and is considerably smaller.
These may not be the best comparisons but they are vastly better than comparing a Leaf to a Versa or a Volt to a Cruze. Those are just silly comparisons.
TomT
Well-known member
Once again I am out of sync with the mainstream :lol:, as I came from a BMW 3 series to the Leaf... If the Leaf handled and drove like the BMW, and had the same interior quality and appointments, it would be near perfect for me...
SanDust said:
edatoakrun
Well-known member
In contrast, I essentially came from a 95 dodge stratus, 2 litre 5 speed, with 182,000 miles on it.
Since, while waiting for a BEV, I drove almost 30,000 miles, through two winters (mostly) in that car, after the head gasket/heater core failure, so even the LEAF heater seems OK to me.
So, I have to keep reminding myself, that the LEAF is not the perfect car, it just seems like it, to me...
mkjayakumar
Well-known member
"I've calculated its equivalent cost at $24665 (just over $5000 cheaper than the LEAF with tax credit)."
Someone who bought the 2011 SV model at $24.5K I have already had my ROI and raking in savings. Nissan should be continuing the 2011 SV model at MSRP 32K as an option.
Someone who bought the 2011 SV model at $24.5K I have already had my ROI and raking in savings. Nissan should be continuing the 2011 SV model at MSRP 32K as an option.
lpickup
Well-known member
mkjayakumar said:
Well to be honest buying the LEAF for the TCO savings was not really on my list (definitely not in the top 5). I didn't even realize before I started looking at the LEAF that it was going to be cheaper than a gas vehicle. The fact that it is turned out to be a very pleasant surprise!
Unfortunately it doesn't. But there are some folks who made the switch from a German luxury brand to a Leaf just as there are people who moved from the Prius to the Volt. Just not as many as did something else. My question would be how many people cross shopped a Versa and a Leaf? That number has to be very low, which tells you those two cars aren't similar at all. Yet that's exactly the comparison you see made all the time.TomT said:
edatoakrun
Well-known member
SanDust said:
German luxury brand cross-shoppers may have a BEV option from Nissan, but Infiniti marque, by 2014:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JJMvWjl4a4&feature=player_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This could be easily fixed with some changes to the suspension - slightly stiffer springs, higher damping rates on the struts/shocks and stiffer bushings in the steering rack to replace the marshmallows that must be in there now would all make the LEAF more to your liking. It would take some R&D to do it, but unfortunately on a low-volume car like the LEAF I doubt anyone is going to step up.TomT said:
Would be nice, though.
GRA
Well-known member
FWIW, Cr lumps the Leaf in a category of "fuel-efficient hatchbacks", which apparently assumes that fuel-economy/carbon emissions are the primary motivating factor for potential purchasers, as each of the cars listed is considerably more expensive than the comparable version with a conventional engine. The list makes little attempt at matching class against class or size against size:
Golf TDI
Lexus CT200h
Prius
Leaf
Volt
Smart Fortwo (!)
For me, comparing class (i.e. equipment), size and general performance, while ignoring issues of the powertrain or the body style, the Leaf comes closest albeit slightly smaller to what CR calls the Family Sedan class, i.e. Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, Fusion etc. There really aren't too many hatchbacks of its size available, which is larger than a sub-compact but smaller than the above sedans, which are now considered midsize. A Focus might be a good comparo, as are the Prius/Insight with lots of options. The Golf's smaller and sportier.
Golf TDI
Lexus CT200h
Prius
Leaf
Volt
Smart Fortwo (!)
For me, comparing class (i.e. equipment), size and general performance, while ignoring issues of the powertrain or the body style, the Leaf comes closest albeit slightly smaller to what CR calls the Family Sedan class, i.e. Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, Fusion etc. There really aren't too many hatchbacks of its size available, which is larger than a sub-compact but smaller than the above sedans, which are now considered midsize. A Focus might be a good comparo, as are the Prius/Insight with lots of options. The Golf's smaller and sportier.
LTLFTcomposite
Well-known member
If you look at weight instead of size, Leaf is comparable to a Maxima, around 3500lb curb weight. Heavy cars ride nicer 
TomT
Well-known member
Unless it also offered a commensurate increase in range for the increased price, it would be a non-starter for me...
edatoakrun said:
TomT
Well-known member
I've always found just the opposite to be true. I much prefer the ride of lighter, more nimble cars...
LTLFTcomposite said:If you look at weight instead of size, Leaf is comparable to a Maxima, around 3500lb curb weight. Heavy cars ride nicer
TomT
Well-known member
Operating costs, TCO, and reduced maintenance were both near the top of my list... Frankly, environmental concerns were not as big a consideration for me as for some others...
lpickup said:
lpickup
Well-known member
Actually environmental concerns were not at the top of my list (or at least the ones that are frequently mentioned).TomT said:
My top 3 concerns were:
1) Reducing dependence on foreign oil and the whole ecosphere surrounding big oil. I just got so damn sick and tired of the price of gas fluctuating by huge amounts every time someone sneezed. And the local gas stations playing ridiculous games to try to game the cheap gas apps and such (changing the price of gas several times a day so as to hit the rush hour drivers, but still get credit for being "cheap").
2) Improving overall efficiency in a well-to-wheels (or mine-to-wheels if you will) sense. I just didn't feel right knowing there were so many losses in the line for fossil fuels compared to electricity. And the fact that as newer electrical generation techniques came on line the EV would follow. I guess you could call this an environmental reason, but not pollution or greenhouse issues (I am concerned about those by the way).
3) Reducing use of a scarce resource. The thing that scares me is the fact that countries like China and India are becoming more motorized and that's going to create a huge demand for some kind of fuel. My sense is that they will have to consider EVs before we will, but nonetheless, I'd rather keep our fossil fuel reserves for things better suited for fossil fuels and use electric for those other things we can. Again I suppose this is an environmental issue at heart too.
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