What's your car charging experience been like? MIT Designers

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L2 is ok at Airports, Park-and-Rides, Hotels....but for long trips (such as at Rest Stops) I'd like to see L3's exclusively. I'd also like to see L3's at malls or other shopping locations as I'm in and out of there in a 1/2 hour or so.

PatricioEV said:
Personally, I think the focus on public stations should be quick chargers almost exclusively. If I were to need/use one while out, I'd want it to be a quick charger!
 
I believe, the most important thing you should realize, is that the charging requirements and preferences are completely different for a BEV, like the LEAF, than for a PHEV, like the Volt.

This is because when the driver of a BEV faces the option of where and how to fuel, the environmental and financial cost analysis (when not distorted by subsidies) will almost always lead to a preference for home/overnight charging, rather than using a public EVSE. The only exception is when the day’s drive exceeds the overnight charge range, in which case, the only practical option is fast charging, not the L2 public chargers, which make up the vast majority of the public EVSE today.

The preference for home/overnight charging also holds true for a PHEV like the Volt, but the much shorter electric range of PHEVs, requires the use of public charging, far more frequently, for electricity-fueled travel. However, since no electric charging at all is required , due to the on-board generator and/or traction ICEV, charging is never a necessity, but only the preferable fuel option, for a PHEV.

While the instances of BEVs using public charging will be relatively rare in comparison to PHEVs, BEVs need faster charging, to be practical for longer trips. L2s just don’t suffice, for a several hundred mile trip (as many know from the experience). The infrastructure must be fast, flexible, reliable, and available 24 hours a day, on all major highways (as gasoline is today) in order for BEVs to be widely adopted, for single-vehicle owners.

So far, no PHEV has been designed to accept charging at a faster rate than L2. And the presence of a fast charge network, would, of course, remove much of the design rationale for PHEVs, in the first place. Public L2 is much more useful for PHEVs, as, their short range is far more likely to require intraday recharging, but the charge network does not require reliability, either of access or operation, due to the on-board ICEV alternative.

Unfortunately, the prevalent model of “free” L2 charge stations, has the perverse effect of encouraging both BEV and PHEV drivers to charge at these points whenever possible, even where the true cost, both financial and to the environment, would almost always be lower, if the same vehicles were charged overnight at home, whenever this option meets range requirements.

As for overnight (home) charging of PHEVs, I don’t see L2 is often required, as L1 charging should be sufficient, in the vast majority of cases, for PHEVs, of 12 kWh or smaller, battery capacity.

Some LEAF owners have been critical of the low rate of the LEAFs on-board charger, and the L2 rate, but some others are satisfied with L1, for home charging. For me, I use L2 at home, since the upgrade I required for traveling, also meets that purpose. Otherwise, I might still be using L1, at home.

Back to your questions:

So I'm going to start by asking what sort of charging station you have at home?

Nissan L1, upgraded to 16 amp L2.

Do you take the 'portable' charger around in the car with you?

Yes, I carry the same charger as above with me, excepting short trips of under 50 miles.

Have you ever used this outside your own home?

Frequently. There very few “public’ L2 charge points within 200 miles of my home, so I utilize the portable L2 frequently, at both private homes, and commercial establishments, such as RV parks.

And have you ever used a publicly available charging station and what was your experience?

Yes. I've never seen an operating fast/DC station, and I've never been to a public L2 located where I planned to park (other than as required, by the slow L2 charger) for a long enough time to receive a significant charge, with one exception. The one public L2 located near my home, where these conditions were met, has been so unreliable, due to operational and access problems ( blocked on 4 of 5 visits, out of order 3 of 5, and accessible only limited hours) I have actually received only a few hours of public L2 charge, other than at the Local Nissan Dealership, in the last 10 months.

I was able to make the over 250 mile drive home, last May, from the San Francisco Bay Area to my home in Northern California, using public L2 and Nissan dealership charging. I suspect this might not be as quite easy today, since the L2 network has not grown, and the number of PHEVs and BEVs has increased enough since then, that I might not have access to the same (limited number of, all “free”) L2s, on the last 200 miles of this route.
 
coqui said:
L2 is ok at Airports, Park-and-Rides, Hotels....but for long trips (such as at Rest Stops) I'd like to see L3's exclusively. I'd also like to see L3's at malls or other shopping locations as I'm in and out of there in a 1/2 hour or so.

PatricioEV said:
Personally, I think the focus on public stations should be quick chargers almost exclusively. If I were to need/use one while out, I'd want it to be a quick charger!
I disagree on L2 at an airport. Either L1 or L3 or both. L2 is a waste as we could have 8 L1 for the same power as 2 L2. But we need 100 L1 and that would be a lot of L2 power wasted.
 
Edited my previous post to add this:
>> Do you take the 'portable' charger around in the car with you?
Yes. I have the http://evseupgrade.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that modifies the Nissan EVSE for dual 120V 12A (4 mphc) / 240V 16A (12 mphc)operation. MPHC - Miles of range Per Hour of Charging. On longer trips of over 120 miles at 60 mph, the 120V isn't fast enough for destinations I spend less than 10 hours at, So the 240V portable charging at a a friends dryer outlet, where my friend won't be installing an EV charger is REALLY valuable to extend the utility of the LEAF. I also have a L6-20 inline 240V 20A GFCI I can use at the dryer outlet for extra safety. People plug in welders, tables saws and over 240V equipment all the time, as does most of Europe, With a little care it can be done very safely. When we have a forest of LEAFs, and there are more LEAFs that need to charge than charger, I use a J1772 splitter that allows two LEAFs to charge from one J1772 charger as a special setup for events,since the J1772 supplies 6.6 kW but the LEAF charges at 3.3 kW maximum. (Yes, they put a small charger in the, car, they know it was a mistake and the mext model year will have the larger 6.6 kW charger. They should at least have the option for 10 or 20 kW onboard charger, since there are over a dozen high power J1772 stations that supply 240V at 70A and the J1772 standard goes up to 240V 80A, which allows charging at 60 mphc closer to the DC Fast Charger rate of 160 MPHC, but at a much, much lower cost. The Tesla Model s comes stock with 10 kW onboard charger and a $1500option to upgrade to 20 a kW onboard charger "Twin Chargers".)
 
smkettner said:
I disagree on L2 at an airport. Either L1 or L3 or both. L2 is a waste as we could have 8 L1 for the same power as 2 L2. But we need 100 L1 and that would be a lot of L2 power wasted.

A garage near our airport (San Diego) is installing 115 stalls with 120v outlets.
 
TonyWilliams said:
smkettner said:
I disagree on L2 at an airport. Either L1 or L3 or both. L2 is a waste as we could have 8 L1 for the same power as 2 L2. But we need 100 L1 and that would be a lot of L2 power wasted.
A garage near our airport (San Diego) is installing 115 stalls with 120v outlets.
Awesome! Makes me wonder if Tony had anything to do with it! If the 120V had J1772 connectors, it increases the charging station costs but means we don't have to worry about the physical security of our portable EVSE.
 
ElectricVehicle said:
TonyWilliams said:
smkettner said:
I disagree on L2 at an airport. Either L1 or L3 or both. L2 is a waste as we could have 8 L1 for the same power as 2 L2. But we need 100 L1 and that would be a lot of L2 power wasted.
A garage near our airport (San Diego) is installing 115 stalls with 120v outlets.
Awesome! Makes me wonder if Tony had anything to do with it! If the 120V had J1772 connectors, it increases the charging station costs but means we don't have to worry about the physical security of our portable EVSE.

I did try and sell them on the Clipper Creek 120v J1772, but I understand their reluctance on that.
 
MIT said:
what sort of charging station you have at home?

First, you need to learn the terms. The charger is physically located behind the rear seat of the Nissan LEAF, and is currently only capable of using 16 amps at 240 volts (3.3kW). Of that power, about 85% of that 3.3kW is physically delivered to the LEAF's battery. The charger can also accept 120 volts at up to 12 amps (1.44kW) with about 73% efficiency into the battery.

My home garage has a wall mounted EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment); a Blink SAE J1772-2009 (L2), capable of 30 amp service at 240 volts (6.6kW). For model year 2013, the LEAF will be able to take full advantage of this EVSE with a 6.6kW charger in the car. Nissan has no plans to upgrade previous model year cars with the higher capacity charger.

Do you take the 'portable' charger around in the car with you?

The Nissan LEAF comes with a Panasonic portable EVSE capable of 120 volt service in the USA/Canada, 100 volts in Japan, and 230 volts in the rest of the world. About 1/3 of USA customers have updated the Panasonic to 240 volt service through http://www.EVSEupgrade.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I have this modification, the Version 2 edition, capable of full power to the charger (240v/16amp).

Have you ever used this outside your own home?

Yes.

have you ever used a publicly available charging station and what was your experience?

Yes. Here in San Diego, there are very few, of course, and many times, they don't work (note: San Diego has well over 1000 electric vehicles). Particularly Blink units, which are notorious for low MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure). There are exactly 5 ChaDeMo DC Quick Chargers in California; one owned by Mitsubishi at their headquarters in Cypress (Los Angeles area), and my singular experience using this Eaton unit resulted in a failure. It was broken.

Nissan has one at their facility in Sacramento, but of course, it's not available to the public. Two large electric utilities each have one; PG&E in the San Francisco area has one in Vacaville, and SDG&E in San Diego has one also (a $90,000 JFE unit). Neither is available to the public, or their employees.

Finally, one Eaton unit is available for public use (the only purely public use one in all of California), but it has never been operational for technical reasons. Edit: that unit is at a "7-11" convenience store near San Bernadino.

anything you can tell us will be helpful.

L2 is for the destination, and L3 is for getting to the destination. Don't put chargers in premium parking spots, like handicapped spots are. Utility demand charges in California severely hamper widespread adoption of DC Quick Charging. Make one standard for charging; currently there are four standards for High Power chargers, ChaDeMo, the not-yet-here SAE clunky mess that your pals at Government Motors have signed up for, a Renault design that uses 43kW of AC power, and Tesla.
 
Have 50k miles in a MINI E. I’ve had adapters to use public charging (NEMA 14-50, Avcon, J1772) for 30 months. 90% of charging is at home on effortless, boring, reliable, 32 amp L2 Clipper Creek EVSE. Only negative is UL required change to inferior quality, heavier, stiffer, awkward, scuff prone, dirt magnet cable.

However, 10% of my charging and 20% of my miles used public opportunity charging. The MINI E can charge at up to 12kW, adding ~45 miles per charge hour. This has facilitated longer trips to San Diego and San Francisco. The on-board charge rate dictates the ultimate speed the car can travel, and so, its utility for longer trips. Best charging experience? Rabobank’s converted Tesla EVSEs at 50 amps. Best free commercial EVSE is Clipper Creek. Best paid commercial EVSE is ChargePoint. I never leave home without 120v L1 EVSE that is unnecessarily cumbersome. EVs should have a 20’ retractable cord like a vacuum cleaner for L1 charging.

I do not think Quick Charge technology can overcome it’s handicaps here in California (expense, demand charge). I thing best option is to use higher rate AC thru the on-board Inverter as does Tesla, AC Propulsion “tzero”, and now Renault “Chameleon”. I did not buy a LEAF due to slow 3.3kW on-board charger.
 
KeiJidosha said:
...I do not think Quick Charge technology can overcome it’s handicaps here in California (expense, demand charge). I thing best option is to use higher rate AC thru the on-board Inverter...

Of course, the demand charge applies to all public charge points.

And, the AC examples you give, could only avoid the demand charges, by being slower.

And, it is questionable conclusion , IMO, to suggest that, requiring every BEV to carry their own on-board fast-charge inverter, will produce lower expense, than placing a much smaller number of stationary inverters, at the fast (or demand-charge-evading, not-so-fast) charge point locations.
 
edatoakrun said:
And, it is questionable conclusion , IMO, to suggest that, requiring every BEV to carry their own on-board fast-charge inverter, will produce lower expense, than placing a much smaller number of stationary inverters, at the fast (or demand-charge-evading, not-so-fast, often under 20kW) charge point locations.
"tzero™ technology includes patented control and construction techniques that allow the power electronics and motor windings to be re-configured as a high-rate Reductive™ battery charger. Using existing componentry, the Reductive™ Charger reduces vehicle cost and weight. By allowing safe charging from existing 110V to 240V outlets at rates as high as 18 kW, the Reductive™ Charger reduces infrastructure installation requirements and costs, and its innovative bi-directional power capability allows self contained vehicle battery diagnostics and standby power generation. "
(Learn more about AC Propulsion's Reductive™ Charger)
 
KeiJidosha said:
edatoakrun said:
And, it is questionable conclusion , IMO, to suggest that, requiring every BEV to carry their own on-board fast-charge inverter, will produce lower expense, than placing a much smaller number of stationary inverters, at the fast (or demand-charge-evading, not-so-fast, often under 20kW) charge point locations.
"tzero™ technology includes patented control and construction techniques that allow the power electronics and motor windings to be re-configured as a high-rate Reductive™ battery charger. Using existing componentry, the Reductive™ Charger reduces vehicle cost and weight. By allowing safe charging from existing 110V to 240V outlets at rates as high as 18 kW, the Reductive™ Charger reduces infrastructure installation requirements and costs, and its innovative bi-directional power capability allows self contained vehicle battery diagnostics and standby power generation. "
(Learn more about AC Propulsion's Reductive™ Charger)

<Off-topic>

Likely too slow, to allow the significant range extension, desired by a very large segment of BEV drivers, IMO.

I don't think ChaDeMo is the final word in fast charging, and it is also too slow, for those who want to go even farther, and faster.

But ChaDeMo is, IMO, the best fast-charge option, now available, to most prospective BEV buyers-owning a LEAF myself, included, of course.

Assuming we eventually build the fast charge stations...
 
Jordan:

What sort of charging station you have at home?

I own a Aeroviroment Level 2 EVSE.

Do you take the 'portable' charger around in the car with you?
Yes.

Have you ever used this outside your own home?

Yes. I have used it just to try it out. I have found it to be too slow to be of any use except as a last resort in an emergency.

I almost always charge at home. I have used several Level 2 EVSE at other locations but not out of necessity but rather just to try them out as long as they were free. I would not pay to charge away from home unless I feared that not doing so would result in my being stranded.

I see two barriers to the use of Level 2 EVSE at non-home locations.
1. The Level 2 EVSE is just too slow to be a good range extender.
2. The premium price that Blink and others want to charge for use.

In most places of business I'm in and out in just a few minutes so it's not worth plugging my car in. If I do plan to be at a location long enough to receive a meaningful charge I'm still not willing to pay $2.50 an hour to do so. At that price the added range would cost me upwards of 37 cents per mile. The combination of slow charging rate and premium price for use will ensure that Level 2 EVSE will go mostly unused.

DC quick charge stations have the potential of greatly increasing the usefulness of electric vehicles. However the high cost of installing these chargers may make their use prohibitively expensive if e-fuel companies adopt a traditional fuel pricing business model.

I believe that what is needed is a low cost DC QC station combined with a subscription plan for unlimited fuel. This idea is being tried in Japan right now. I believe the theory is that if the e-fuel companies offer a low subscription rate ($38.00 per month in Japan) for unlimited use of all charging stations they will gain a large customer base. The e-fuel company will make money due to the fact that most EV drivers will still charge at home for convenience sake but will see value in the availability of a chain of DC QC stations if they need them. The question becomes what is the correct pricing point at which most EV drivers would subscribe but would not feel financially pressured to use the stations as their main charging method. If the e-fuel companies charge too much they may not get many subscribers and those who do subscribe may feel it necessary to use as much electricity as they can to “get their money's worth.”
 
At home: Nissan/Panasonic EVSE upgraded to 240 volts, 12 Amps.

With me: A second identical unit plus a quick 240 box and extension cords.

Used outside of home: At a recreational site I frequently visit, usually for several hours. Sometimes I use the quick 240 box, sometimes 120 volts. Not absolutely necessary, but since the car is just sitting there, why not?

Public charging: Just twice, both L2 at a county library in order to compete a trip. On the way to my destination, had a nice lunch. On the way back, read magazines and surfed the net. Experience OK, except that on the return leg I made a stupid miscalculation and spent far more time charging than necessary.

Bill
 
Here in Dallas, there is one DC QC site (at a Walgreens). The company that runs it only offers monthly payment plans. For $39.00 you can charge all you want. The good news is that until they have 35 sites up, they won't charge anything. The first time I used it there was an electrician there who was just verifying it was OK. We chatted for a while and he said they had 6 more locations ready to go, once the bugs were worked out of the system.

It has worked for me every time I tried it, so I'm hoping they roll out more soon.
 
I am responding to the person concerned about their level 1 charger being stolen. I was lucky I had an experienced Leaf owner show me how to deal with this. This charger is worth $1200 so you do not want to leave it siting in front of your car. What you want to do is open your engine lid and place it in there with the coiled up cable. Plug in the 240 volt plug and run the cable under the plug lid on the drivers side into the engine compartment. Then plug an extension cord into the unit and run it along side the other cord. Close both lids and plug in the extension cord to your 110 outlet. Now the only thing the thieves can steal is the extension cord by cutting it. I have used this several times and had no problems. One word of caution be careful where you have the plugs located for the connection to the extension cord. This will get hot so you do not want it against any plastic. I like to lay it on top of the two 1 inch rad hoses in the front of the engine bay. Sorry about using ICE reference terms but it makes it easier to understand. :cool:
 
ElectricVehicle said:
There are a few etiquette issues with charger sharing, but there are also lots of etiquette issues with a Plug In Prius and it's 11 mile electric range parking in an EV charging space for 8 hours when the Prius charger in an hour or so, and then AB475 forbids sharing the charger.
To bump an old thread, I was a bit disturbed by the attitude of the PiP owner at http://priuschat.com/threads/disgruntled-real-electric-car-owner.124203/page-3#post-1775359" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://priuschat.com/threads/disgruntled-real-electric-car-owner.124203/page-4#post-1777892" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. :roll:

I hope I've gotten him to look at things from a wider perspective and improve his charging etiquette.
 
7 months and 6500 miles, I charge at home on 120V only, never have unplugged my charge cable. I've charged around 10 kwh (less than half a battery pack) at the only public charge station in the city, otherwise all at home on 120V.
 
I live about 30 miles outside of Minneapolis. The #1 MISTAKE i see is that the city has not rolled out ANY L3 stations. Time is money for many people and if i want to drive to the city and back to run a few errands, i NEED access to an L3 charger. For example, I have a special needs daughter in the city. Suppose i want to drive in and visit her, then run an errand that adds another 20 miles driving. I'm pretty much forced to find an L2 station (out of the way) and sit for a minimum of an hour or two to get juiced up enough to make it home.

Minneapolis and St. Paul are circled by the 494 loop with a few other major highways criss-crossing the city. Placing a few L3 stations on the loop and center, would make this a painless trip.

City planners wake up! don't put ALL your $$ into the L2 bandwagon.

Edit:
There's a Lund's Grocery Store in downtown Minneapolis that has two L2 chargers. Not really all that useful. Most people are in and out of this store in 20 minutes. Perfect for an L3...L2? not so much.
 
We've had our car for about a month now, and other people have already offered their valid experience.

However, we're one of those people who use the EVSE that came with the car a lot. Part of that is due to some special circumstances - the reason we bought a car at all (the greenest car is no car at all) was because we're moving house away from convenient rapid transit and further into the suburbs. As such, we'll only be living in our current townhouse complex for a couple more months. I doubt that the developer believed that the 110v outlets they put in the underground parking would be used for electric cars, but they're conveniently located throughout, and we don't want to inconvenience our strata council for a level 2 charger. At our new complex, we've had a 220v outlet installed in our parking space, but we haven't had an EVSE installed. Which is a good thing, because we didn't learn about the EVSEupgrade.com until after we bought our car anyway. That's a much cheaper option, and we'll probably end up mounting ours on the wall and locking it up until we want to go on a road trip. The upgraded EVSE also means mobility and flexibility - it would mean we can stop at any random RV park and get the few extra KM needed to reach our destination, where otherwise it wouldn't be possible due to a "lack of infrastructure". EV drivers I've found, find that concept a little odd, considering there's electricity infrastructure everywhere. It's a concept that applies better to other "alternative" fuels like natural gas or hydrogen, that you can't find on every street corner.

So far we've charged a few times at public level 2 EVSEs, in no small part because we needed to wait a while for our strata to grant permission to use their electricity. These experiences have been mixed. There was one issue when our own Nissan dealership took the car back to have the interior ScotchGuarded, and they either weren't aware of the charge timer, or had simply never had anyone enable it before. However, Carwings fixed the problem after they gave us a call. We also once stopped at a Mitsubishi dealership to charge, only to find that our car had been unplugged and then re-plugged, without them knowing that the car might be on a timer. We disabled our charge timer after that one because it just caused too many problems when charging outside the home. We've also had issues with public EVSEs simply not working, or being removed (?).

We haven't had any experience with level 3 chargers, simply because none exist in our region yet. There's plenty of level 2 chargers, but apparently the installation of the level 3 chargers is caught up in red tape right now.
 
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