Why Did You Choose the Nissan Leaf over the Chevy Volt?

[kubel]

Goofy reasoning to me. The mechanical linkage just makes the car more efficient. This isn't religion. If you get better MPG then why not do it?

I guess I did a poor job explaining myself. But then again, my reasoning may be goofy even if I explain myself with total clarity. To me, the Volt is not a "full performance electric car" if part of its performance in certain circumstances is dependent on mechanical power coming from the gas engine. Like I said, I view the Volt as being superior and advanced from a technology and engineering standpoint than pretty much any car out on the road, including the LEAF. But what it was sold to us as being (a series hybrid, something I'm very excited about) is not what it is (a heavily electric dominant parallel hybrid, meh). Its purity is gone when the gas engine became mated with the front wheels. It certainly makes it more efficient when it runs dry, and that's great... for Prius owners (intentional trolling is intentional, lol). That is my reason for favoring the LEAF over the Volt. It's more of a conceptual purity based thing (your religion analogy isn't entirely inaccurate). I sort of felt a little betrayed by GM when I was lured with the idea that it was something other than a parallel hybrid.

As far as decrease in performance, you're a Volt owner, not me. I have no first hand knowledge. I'm only repeating what others have reported on GM-Volt.com who have intentionally ran the car out of gas. Per their experience, draining the gas tank and running on battery-power-only results in decreased performance. But if it's a "full performance electric car", why would performance not be full when all there is is electric? If mating the genset to the wheels mechanically is only necessary for efficiency, why is there a performance decrease? It's either a full performance EV with a range extender, or it's not.

Hope that makes sense. And I hope I'm not sounding like I love to bash the Volt. I think it's a fantastic car. It's just not the car that I thought it was going to be for over 2 years, and all my critique of it is based on that difference.

 

[JeffN]

The Volt was vapor ware for so long. I was extremely happy that Nissan brought the LEAF to market before the Volt.

Congrats on your new LEAF order! It's a great car if it works for your driving pattern.

The LEAF shipped to customers a few days before the Volt (I think) but the Volt was announced and committed for production in 2007. GM publicly committed in 2008 that Volts would begin rolling off the factory line in November 2010 (which they did). Nissan didn't reveal a production LEAF design and publicly commit to producing it until August 2009.

 

[DaveEV]

Hope that makes sense.

But it doesn't.

The Volt is a "full performance electric car". The fact that GM opted to mate the engine to the wheels under certain operating conditions (when the engine is already running to extend range) to further boost performance is a feature, not a bug.

Thinking less of the Volt because it lacks the "purity" of a true series hybrid is about as "religious" as one gets.

 

[JeffN]

I guess I did a poor job explaining myself. But then again, my reasoning may be goofy even if I explain myself with total clarity. To me, the Volt is not a "full performance electric car" if part of its performance in certain circumstances is dependent on mechanical power coming from the gas engine.

Not goofy (well maybe a little ), just misinformed.

The Volt is not dependent upon the gas engine or the mechanical linkage for full power.

Except in extenuating circumstances, the Volt drives full power on the electric motor and battery under strong acceleration, up steep mountain roads, and up to a maximum design speed of 100 mph (higher than the LEAF). If you mash the accelerator starting from 0 mph the Volt will accelerate all the way to its top speed entirely on battery. Only after the battery has been drained down to its engineered minimum state of charge (around 20%) the Volt switches to hybrid mode and the gas engine is used to generate power. The Volt can configure its powertrain to operate as either a serial or serial/parallel power-split hybrid (somewhat like the Prius).

If you are in hybrid mode and run the gas tank dry that means your battery is already at its normal minimum state of charge. I haven't done this (yet) but I understand that the Volt will allow you to continue driving on some additional battery reserve so you limp home or to a gas station. It may drive at reduced power in this mode to improve efficiency and stretch the remaining power for as many miles as possible.

In my opinion, no gasoline burning vehicle is "pure". Whether it is a serial hybrid (like a Fisker Karma or Volt) or a serial/parallel hybrid (like a Prius or Volt) or a parallel hybrid like Honda Civic is pretty irrelevant. No matter the design, all the hybrid mode power comes from the gas engine.

I would not really call an all-electric car like the LEAF "pure" either but I might contemplate calling it pure for a moment if it gets all its power from solar cells. In any case, it is still a machine created with lots of resources and some pollution. It just has the possibility of generating fewer environmental problems than a petroleum car.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I would not really call an all-electric car like the LEAF "pure" either

Come to think of it my Leaf really is a gas-electric hybrid as well. When we have to go beyond Leaf range we take a gas car. Reverting to gas by having an engine switch on or switching cars, same thing really.

 

[hill]

I just placed my order last Saturday and I am with nubo:

I want PURE Electric! And to be done with gasoline, spark plugs, catalytic converters, exhaust gas recirculation, fuel pumps, ignition coils, fumes, and gas stations. ......snip

You left out PCV, belts, tuneups, oil change, oil filters, plug wires, tranny fluid, smog inspections, and a litany of other goodies . . . but who's counting.
Welcome!

 

[jimcmorr]

Thanks and ya I did.

 

[walterbays]

Volt would have been a good car for me, just not the best. Had I bought a Volt 9 months ago I would have driven 6,567 miles on electricity at a cost of $208 plus 633 miles on gasoline at a cost of $63 for a total of $271. By comparison my old Prius would have cost $782 for those miles, and a Chevy Suburban would have cost $2,280. And of course gas is more expensive now, and headed higher.

My cost of driving the Leaf those miles was $204 or $67 less than Volt, which is a pretty cheap price to pay for range insurance. But then with a second gas car in the garage we didn't need range insurance. Nor did we want the added maintenance complexity of both an electric and a gas engine plus those extra clutches. Nissan has a better reputation for reliability which is especially important for such new models of cars with new technology. The Leaf's lower price, California rebate, extra seating and cargo space, and carpool sticker were all additional points in its favor.

When it's time to replace the gas car, the comparison may be reversed. GM seems on its way to establishing a very good reliability record for Volt, even with all the added complexity. Unless the public charging infrastructure, especially quick charge, builds out at a much faster rate than we've seen to date, then range insurance will be a very important factor when replacing our last gas car. With one mid-size car in the garage (Leaf), the other one can be compact. And Volt now qualifies for the California rebate and carpool stickers.

 

[JPWhite]

My cost of driving the Leaf those miles was $204 or $67 less than Volt, which is a pretty cheap price to pay for range insurance.

You forgot to add in the price of buying the Volt vs Buying a LEAF, that range insurance is more expensive than a simple comparison of fuel costs.

 

[Roadburner440]

I would not really call an all-electric car like the LEAF "pure" either

Come to think of it my Leaf really is a gas-electric hybrid as well. When we have to go beyond Leaf range we take a gas car. Reverting to gas by having an engine switch on or switching cars, same thing really.

That is funny. Both cars have their place. Which is again why I have a Leaf on order. Nissan certaintly got a ton of things right in the car. Not to mention one important factor you guys keep bringing up which is the price. The Leaf gives a lot for the money, and is certaintly well built from my short 200 mile stint in one. I will say there are a multitude of factors that determine which car is best for who. My main reason for getting a Leaf is cause of the Prius' inherent weaknesses that I have discovered. While the Prius too is a great car its design does not bode well for long periods of stop & go traffic. Nor after driving the Volt do I find it very efficient.. The benefits I find of the Leaf are not only is it a larger car, but no longer will I have to plan to bump the charge on the Volt to go longer distances if I wish to stay in EV mode. The Leaf will make it to the outlet malls and back (probably barely, but I already have an RV park picked out nearby to bump the charge while we shop). So the Leaf opens up a lot of possibilities I could only dream about with the Volt. The Volt will always remain the funner car to drive though. That is the one area that GM really got it right on that car. Not to mention it just has that wow factor when people look at it. Granted some people will be "wow that is ugly!" None the less though it still has the wow factor. :lol:

 

[Caracalover]

None the less though it still has the wow factor. :lol:

I wonder why they don't advertise that fact. Volt would sell well if they put it next to a mustang, and dropped a race flag - I assume it is faster off the line.

Trying to sell it for its confusion factor is stupid.

 

[TomT]

Not in the hands of a good driver. And front wheel drive cars - at least on cars with more than just a moderate amount of power available - are always at a disadvantage in acceleration due to weight transfer.

I wonder why they don't advertise that fact. Volt would sell well if they put it next to a mustang, and dropped a race flag - I assume it is faster off the line.

 

[Roadburner440]

I have gotten the jump on the older 4.6 V-8 Mustangs. I would not try to take on a new 5.0 in a Volt though. The main disadvantage is the single gearing system the electrics have. If we had a transmission I think we would be golden, and would smoke any of the turbo charged 4 cylinders, or even V-6 imports. I really think when the Volt was engineered it was meant to be something totally different from what it was marketed as. Especially since I view they could have made the car more efficient than it is. The car has some pretty wide tires on it. Granted they are LRR, but if they were narrower it would have certaintly lowered the rolling resistance. Not to mention the suspension could have been made softer as well, but instead it is firm as a rock. There is barely any roll in to corners. In fact like my old SRT-8 it will just start sliding when you over power it through a corner before it induces body roll (granted the sliding is a loss of traction, but I find it amazing how little give the suspension really has). A lot of magazines point the fun factor in the car out as well, but none really emphasize the true driving behavior of the car. I just think somewhere GM went from trying to maximize efficiency in the car (with the 230mpg claim, and the "lies" that are often referred to), and decided to make a vehicle that they could mass market that was fun to drive as well as decently efficient. I think it was a mistake the market the car under Chevrolet, and not say Cadillac. I think the car would have had marginally more success. A lot of people ding it for the 37mpg rating, and even I ding it on occassion for only getting 20mpg or so under conditions where the engine does not get enough time to warm up and is on for maybe 3 or 4 minutes just to bridge the gap home.

The Volt really does not have a weight shift that is felt through heavy acceleration. The car stays level for the most part. It actually accelerates pretty quickly, but like you guys have noticed with the Leaf they limit the amount of power in the curve until the car is rolling a bit. I am going to assume it is so the reduction gear doesn't get obliterated, but not sure of the real reason. Even when I drove the Leaf it did not seem to have a large transition under heavy acceleration, but it did have roll through corners and thankfully absorbs bumps with ease. I think the old weight rules of the past are different on these cars. With the majority of their weight slung underneath low to the ground in the middle of the car it seems to level out a lot of the normal forces we are accustomed to. At least me anyway. Overall the Volt and Leaf are some of the most well balanced compacts I have ever driven. You do not really see them marketing the Leaf's driving aspects either. Only that it is quiet & green. Where the Volt it is always "I thought this was electric." Think both companies could have done better with advertising, but at least Nissan sold 20,000 Leaf's. GM's marketing department really missed the mark, and has done more harm than good on top of already bad media exposure.

 

[JPWhite]

are always at a disadvantage in acceleration due to weight transfer.

Apologies, but whenever I see an absolute term such as always it compels me to provide an example when that may not be true

OK So the road surface is rainy or maybe just very slick. Now the front wheel drive vehicle is at an advantage with more weight on the drive wheels and little weight transfer will take place given the moderate acceleration possible.

I *love* accelerating hard off the line at a red light when its raining while driving my my LEAF. The instant torque coupled with traction control are truly impressive, and leaves all comers in my wake of my spray

 

[JPWhite]

I think it was a mistake the market the car under Chevrolet, and not say Cadillac. I think the car would have had marginally more success.

The more I read people saying this the more I find myself agreeing. Many new features or advances in GM cars have been introduced first in the flagship Cadillac brand. Then as costs to manufacture the features drop, the features filter down until the the whole line-up gets the feature. A good example of this is on-star which only recently became available in models like the Malibu, but have been available on the Cadillac models for a long time. A more mundane example is remote electronic trunk release from a fob.

Introducing EV's at the Cadillac level first may make more sense. The reason I believe they avoided the approach is that Cadillacs are big and heavy, which isn't great for EV's. They would run the risk of making the equivalent of the Fiskar Karma. I don't think there is a small Cadillac, whereas there are small BMW's, AUDI's etc.

 

[SanDust]

Per their experience, draining the gas tank and running on battery-power-only results in decreased performance. But if it's a "full performance electric car", why would performance not be full when all there is is electric? If mating the genset to the wheels mechanically is only necessary for efficiency, why is there a performance decrease? It's either a full performance EV with a range extender, or it's not.

A reduced propulsion mode doesn't have anything to do, per se, with full electric performance. We can agree that the Leaf has full electric performance, yet it goes into a reduced propulsion mode in a couple of different situations. One is when you put it into Eco. The other is when you go into Turtle.

I think the Volt remaps the accelerator into something resembling the Leaf's Eco Mode when you run out of gas but have a battery charge. The notion is probably that this help protect the driver from frittering away his/her remaining range. But that doesn't have anything to do with a mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels nor does it mean there isn't "full electric performance". Since in this case the engine can't run if there is no gas, the Volt has to be in a full electric performance mode since all power is coming from the battery.

 

[Yodrak]

And, people expect to pay more for a Cadilac than for a Chevy. Badging the Volt as a Cadilac would have made the price seem more reasonable.

The more I read people saying this the more I find myself agreeing. Many new features or advances in GM cars have been introduced first in the flagship Cadillac brand.

I think it was a mistake the market the car under Chevrolet, and not say Cadillac. I think the car would have had marginally more success.

 

[Deleted member 3147]

And, people expect to pay more for a Cadilac than for a Chevy. Badging the Volt as a Cadilac would have made the price seem more reasonable.

The more I read people saying this the more I find myself agreeing. Many new features or advances in GM cars have been introduced first in the flagship Cadillac brand.

I think it was a mistake the market the car under Chevrolet, and not say Cadillac. I think the car would have had marginally more success.

Actually, some time ago, I was at a car show, probably San Francisco, where GM was showing off a concept Cadillac version of the Volt. I don't know what happened to it. They were claiming all sorts of out-there and possibly impractical additions such as cameras instead of side mirrors!

I just Googled and found this: http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/08/cadillac-to-offer-volt-based-converj-concept.html Note the missing mirrors in the photo

 

[Roadburner440]

I think the Volt remaps the accelerator into something resembling the Leaf's Eco Mode when you run out of gas but have a battery charge. The notion is probably that this help protect the driver from frittering away his/her remaining range. But that doesn't have anything to do with a mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels nor does it mean there isn't "full electric performance". Since in this case the engine can't run if there is no gas, the Volt has to be in a full electric performance mode since all power is coming from the battery.

It reduces the acceleration. That is it. It would be in your best interest to keep it at low speed as once the gas runs out you only get about 3-5 more miles before the Volt "dies." So very similar to turtle. The car is always in full electric performance though EXCEPT when at highway speeds in CS (Charge Sustain) Mode with the gas engine on. At speeds somewhere over 50mph it will couple the engine to the wheels as it is more efficient than spinning the generator at a high enough RPM to create all the electricity to electrically power the car at those speeds. At slow speeds my best analogy for the Volt is it is like flying a prop plane. You can be sitting at lights with the engine at high RPM charging the batteries, and people staring at you because the engine is running like that. At low speeds it is always decoupled from the wheels, and the RPM will vary/engine shut off based on demand or whether it is trying to keep the battery SOC up.

 

[JeffN]

Actually, some time ago, I was at a car show, probably San Francisco, where GM was showing off a concept Cadillac version of the Volt. I don't know what happened to it.

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