WSJ claims to quote Mark Perry on battery cost

[Yanquetino]

Just a little over a week ago, the Times of London published this article that the Leaf's battery pack would cost £6,000 in the U.K., i.e., $9,000 --a mere $375 per kWh!

It now appears (<-- note italics) that said price might be erroneous. According to this article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal, Mark Perry is quoted as saying the battery pack will cost $18,000: $750 per kWh.

This makes perfect sense to me. The average cost of a comparable Nissan Versa is about $14,850. If we add $18,000 to that figure, the Leaf should retail for approximately $32,850 --right in the "ballpark" of its announced price! Sounds good to me.

 

[evnow]

Sorry, your title is not correct. He does nothing of that sort.

Nissan will spend less than $18,000 on the battery, which would mean less than $750 per kilowatt hour, said Mark Perry, the chief product planner for Nissan North America. That is below an estimate of the cost of such batteries of $1,000 per kilowatt hour put out by PriceWaterhouse Coopers.

In the link there is no talk of the 6000 pound figure, at all.

Ofcource, "cost" is a veriable figure depending on the various things you consider.
- BOM
- Labor
- Capital costs / finance costs
- Administrative overheads

The 375/kwh could be the first two - where as the 18,000 quoted could include all the above.

ps : The major problem I've with newspapers is that they don't give the full story. They just pick and chose what to print. When Perry says "less than 18K" - we should know what the question was. If the question was "Does the battery cost 6K pounds reported in Times ?" vs "Does the battery cost $1,000/kwh?" the meaning of his answer would be totally different.

 

[Yanquetino]

Sorry, your title is not correct. He does nothing of that sort.

Wha...? *IF* Mark Perry said that "Nissan will spend less that $18,000 on the battery," how is that NOT a clarification of its cost?

Are you surmising that the WSJ isn't really quoting him, since they didn't use quotation marks? Could be. I suppose they could even be putting words in his mouth. If so... I hope Perry will issue a disclaimer that he said nothing of the sort.

Or are you asserting that "less than" is so nebulous that it doesn't clarify anything? I guess that, in a strict sense, that is true, since he didn't give an exact price, but it certainly clarifies that the battery does NOT cost $1,000/kWh, as has been claimed by EV naysayers for many months.

All I did was echo what the article said he said --true or false. :?

 

[sjfotos]

I would be very surprised if Mark Perry gave out anything more than a very general idea of the costs of production. This figure is a strategic piece of data that I think is unlikely to be described by an executive. In addition, as evnow alludes to, 'cost' is a very complicated number to derive at a major car company. Any number given would need a great many details on what it covers in order to understand what it really means. Having seen a few production cost spreadsheets and overhead pools for major North American auto companies, it is a deep swamp indeed!

 

[Yanquetino]

Uh... okay. I don't recall ever saying that "cost" isn't a very complicated number, nor that what the WSJ article said was cold, hard, indisputable fact. I just thought other Leaf aficionados would be interested in the link, and ventured a few of my own thoughts about what it said. Learned my lesson there.

 

[sjfotos]

Yanquetino, no problem, I was not being critical and I appreciate your post of the article. I actually want to go back and read it closely when I have more time. I don't think your subject line was wrong, I was simply weighing in on the many possible meanings of 'cost'. Thanks!

 

[evnow]

Sorry, your title is not correct. He does nothing of that sort.

Wha...? *IF* Mark Perry said that "Nissan will spend less that $18,000 on the battery," how is that NOT a clarification of its cost?

Because we don't know whether the original article & cost in Times was ever brought up. If it was not - then it can not be a clarification.

At best you can say Perry contradicts Times article.

 

[garygid]

Those little words are pesky, but usually important:
not, if, less than, etc.

Since I do not Subscribe, I cannot read the WSJ article.

 

[sjfotos]

Sorry, your title is not correct. He does nothing of that sort.

Wha...? *IF* Mark Perry said that "Nissan will spend less that $18,000 on the battery," how is that NOT a clarification of its cost?

Because we don't know whether the original article & cost in Times was ever brought up. If it was not - then it can not be a clarification.

At best you can say Perry contradicts Times article.

That is a distinction that borders on the obsessive In any case, I will want to go and read the whole article closely when I have the chance.

 

[Yanquetino]

Because we don't know whether the original article & cost in Times was ever brought up. If it was not - then it can not be a clarification.

At best you can say Perry contradicts Times article.

Ah. Well... you see... the supposed quote by WSJ seemed to clarify the issue for me, because I had read the Times article previously. I had naively assumed that other Leaf aficionados had likewise read it, so it might clarify the issue for them also. And if they hadn't read it... I provided the link.

I suppose what I should have posted is that "The WSJ claims that Mark Perry stated a different battery cost than what the Times of London reported last week." Live and learn. :shock:

 

[evnow]

That is a distinction that borders on the obsessive In any case, I will want to go and read the whole article closely when I have the chance.

LOL - journalism is all about that :lol:

In all seriousness, since battery price is a very sensitive issue that is hotly debated all the time, every bit of battery cost news is going to be analysed and hairs split all the time. Afterall so many articles and studies claim EVs are going to fail purely based on cost of battery pack per kwh. So, it shoulnd't be a surprise that clear distinctions will be called for.

 

[AndyH]

Thanks for the article link, Yanquetino!

Google will help us read the full WSJ articles without a subscription.

I've been cutting/pasting the first sentence from the article and doing the 'Google Thing':
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=FRANKLIN,+Tenn.%E2%80%94Nissan+Motor+Co.+may+initially+lose+money+on+its+Leaf+electric+car+before+generating+profits+after+it+opens+a+U.S.+plant+in+2013+to+produce+the+vehicle+in+volume,+according+to+a+senior+U.S.+executive+at+the+company.&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

The third item for me is the WSJ article - the green link for the entry begins 'online.wsj.com'

 

[mitch672]

might as well just steal the entire text of the article

--------------------------------------------------

"By MIKE RAMSEY
FRANKLIN, Tenn.—Nissan Motor Co. may initially lose money on its Leaf electric car before generating profits after it opens a U.S. plant in 2013 to produce the vehicle in volume, according to a senior U.S. executive at the company.

"Over the course of the vehicle life, it is profitable—in year three," Brian Carolin, Nissan's U.S. sales and marketing chief, said in an interview.

The battery-powered car is supposed to go on sale in December priced at $32,780 and is eligible for a $7,500 federal tax credit. Nissan's finance unit plans to lease the Leaf for $349 a month for three years. Nissan believes the car will be able to go about 100 miles before needing a recharge.

The Leaf will be built in Japan only at first, and exported to the U.S. and Europe. The Japanese plant will have a 50,000-vehicle capacity. Mr. Carolin would like to get 20,000 cars from the plant for the U.S. market in 2011 and 2012.

Nissan will open a renovated portion of its Smyrna, Tenn., plant in December 2012 with a capacity to make 150,000 Leafs annually. At higher volumes, the car will be profitable, he said.

By comparison, General Motors Co. expects to build between 8,000 and 10,000 Chevrolet Volt electric cars next year. The Volt is an electric car with a gas engine that recharges the battery when its charge gets low.

Nissan said has already taken about 9,000 reservations from potential U.S. buyers of the Leaf from people who put in a refundable $99 down payment.

Carlos Tavares, chief executive for the Americas for Nissan, said the only way for an electric car to be profitable is for it to be a mass-market, high-volume vehicle. Nissan must price the vehicle close to other cars it competes against and the only way to get the price low enough is to build it in higher volumes, Mr. Tavares said.

Nissan says the total cost of ownership, including fuel costs, is lower than the Honda Civic and Toyota Prius.

Much of the cost of building the vehicle is in the 600-pound, 24-kilowatt, lithium-ion battery pack. Nissan developed its own battery technology and is building a plant next to the Smyrna assembly plant.

Nissan will spend less than $18,000 on the battery, which would mean less than $750 per kilowatt hour, said Mark Perry, the chief product planner for Nissan North America. That is below an estimate of the cost of such batteries of $1,000 per kilowatt hour put out by PriceWaterhouse Coopers.

The battery plant will be able to make 200,000 packs annually and Nissan is seeking to sell excess packs to other companies, Mr. Carolin said. "

 

[Cacti]

Nissan Leaf profitable by year three; battery cost closer to $18,000

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/15/nissan-leaf-profitable-by-year-three-battery-cost-closer-to-18/


"A couple weeks ago, the Times of London reported that the battery in the Nissan Leaf cost the automaker around $9,000 to produce. We covered the story here, but were hesitant to agree with what seemed to be an incredibly low price. We went with the story because Nissan had told us that a profit will be made on each Leaf sold, so the low battery price partially made sense. We were still skeptical of the numbers though, with good reason, because a new report pegs the battery cost at around double the previously reported amount. Mark Perry, Nissan's chief product planner for North America, told the Wall Street Journal that the actual cost is a little less than $750 per kilowatt hour, bringing the total to just below $18,000."

 

[evnow]

Merging the topics ...

 

[garygid]

Probably the "battery-cost" figures were something like $9000 for the battery cells themselves, and then $9000 additional to "produce" the finished modules, all packaged with the associated in-battery electronics in the battery box, for $18,000 total.

That might explain the $375 and $750 per kWh figures, right?

 

[evnow]

Probably the "battery-cost" figures were something like $9000 for the battery cells themselves, and then $9000 additional to "produce" the finished modules, all packaged with the associated in-battery electronics in the battery box, for $18,000 total.

That might explain the $375 and $750 per kWh figures, right?

BMS shouldn't cost so much.

My guess is that
- $9,000 is the cost once the volumes get going (in Japan)
- $18,000 is the cost Perry is likely to sell the replacement battery at in the US

That is why we see this discripency between what comes out of Japan and what comes from US. The Japanese want to boast how cost effective they are - and US guys want to make a buck on the replacement battery :lol:

 

[garygid]

It is not just the BMS, but the manufacturing and testing of the modules, wiring them all together with suitable Power and BMS components, etc. Each module contains 4 "flat" cells, two High-Current power connections, and another connector for cell monitoring.

$18k for a replacement battery could easily be more than the blue-book of a sick-battery car, since the blue-book would have to be adjusted drastically for "Battery Condition", it would seem.

 

[bedrock8x]

$18k for a replacement battery could easily be more than the blue-book of a sick-battery car, since the blue-book would have to be adjusted drastically for "Battery Condition", it would seem.
It is not just the BMS, but the manufacturing and testing of the modules, wiring them all together with suitable Power and BMS components, etc. Each module contains 4 "flat" cells, two High-Current power connections, and another connector for cell monitoring.

$18k for a replacement battery could easily be more than the blue-book of a sick-battery car, since the blue-book would have to be adjusted drastically for "Battery Condition", it would seem.

Nissan is going the inkjet printer selling strategy, give the Leaf away and making the profit on selling replacement batteries.

 

[Frank]

Given how much the batteries cost, I'm wondering how accessible they are to theft and whether there would be a "black market" for these batteries? And I'm wondering how this situation may affect the insurance cost for the Leaf?