GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:03 pm

Has anyone heard anything more about what the issue is/was with the BEV buses in Park City?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:26 pm

GRA wrote:Has anyone heard anything more about what the issue is/was with the BEV buses in Park City?

When I was out in early February they appeared to have the Proterras back in service on the white route. This was right after Sundance so no doubt the city wanted to project the "correct" image for that.
A couple updates: The on-route charging station at OTTC that was under construction in December was up and running. The buses only have to go about 8 miles now between stations. I suspect the buses were struggling to make the round trip in the colder temps with heat running, now with the additional station they have a safety margin. I heard drivers talking on the radio about coming out of the station(s) but the gauge then indicated they didn't have a full charge, and they were being directed to charge again at the next station. One other curiosity, I saw at least one bus that had Proterra livery instead of the Park City Electric Xpress graphics. IDK if Proterra had to swap out some buses, they were extras brought in for Sundance, or Park City acquired them.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:03 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
GRA wrote:Has anyone heard anything more about what the issue is/was with the BEV buses in Park City?

When I was out in early February they appeared to have the Proterras back in service on the white route. This was right after Sundance so no doubt the city wanted to project the "correct" image for that.
A couple updates: The on-route charging station at OTTC that was under construction in December was up and running. The buses only have to go about 8 miles now between stations. I suspect the buses were struggling to make the round trip in the colder temps with heat running, now with the additional station they have a safety margin. I heard drivers talking on the radio about coming out of the station(s) but the gauge then indicated they didn't have a full charge, and they were being directed to charge again at the next station. One other curiosity, I saw at least one bus that had Proterra livery instead of the Park City Electric Xpress graphics. IDK if Proterra had to swap out some buses, they were extras brought in for Sundance, or Park City acquired them.

Thanks for the info. I'm glad to see that Park City is using battery-leasing. IMO leases are the way to go for all the immature AFV techs, until far more operational, reliability and cost data is available. Until then, the manufacturers should be responsible for meeting their claims.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:00 am

GRA wrote:Until then, the manufacturers should be responsible for meeting their claims.

This is all as much a learning experience for manufacturers as the rest of us.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:14 am

And the transition to BEV transit buses represents a significant change in operations for transit authorities. As such, it will be a real learning curve for them, as well.

Having to change operational procedures is certainly a hurdle to adoption, but I expect it will ultimately result in simplified operations for nearly all transit authorities.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
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GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:40 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
GRA wrote:Until then, the manufacturers should be responsible for meeting their claims.

This is all as much a learning experience for manufacturers as the rest of us.

Certainly is, but making them bear the financial costs if they fail to meet inflated claims should keep those claims more conservative in the first place - we've had enough Envias, Better Places etc. Performance bonds would be another approach.

What I'd really like to see is for a single transit agency to operate current BEV and FCEV buses on the same (preferably their whole) route structure over their full lifetimes (say 12 years, or until enough data has been gathered to unquestionably show one or the other superior) with full public disclosure, so there would be a direct comparison of their TCOs, performance, reliability etc. Unfortunately, all of the transit agencies I'm aware of get a lot of their (ZEV and ICE) bus funding from government grants, and so far those governments have tended to allocate funds for each transit agency to only one of the two ZEV types. That undoubtedly keeps costs down as there's only a need for a single additional spares and maintenance path, but it precludes long term head-to-head comparisons, forcing the need to extrapolate.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:30 pm

GRA wrote:What I'd really like to see is for a single transit agency to operate current BEV and FCEV buses on the same (preferably their whole) route structure over their full lifetimes (say 12 years, or until enough data has been gathered to unquestionably show one or the other superior) with full public disclosure, so there would be a direct comparison of their TCOs, performance, reliability etc.


That way you can keep hyping Fool Cells for the next 12 years. Sigh.

https://qz.com/1169690/shenzhen-in-chin ... bus-fleet/

Fuel cells have lost. Get over it.
WetEV
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GRA
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:35 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:What I'd really like to see is for a single transit agency to operate current BEV and FCEV buses on the same (preferably their whole) route structure over their full lifetimes (say 12 years, or until enough data has been gathered to unquestionably show one or the other superior) with full public disclosure, so there would be a direct comparison of their TCOs, performance, reliability etc.

That way you can keep hyping Fool Cells for the next 12 years. Sigh.

https://qz.com/1169690/shenzhen-in-chin ... bus-fleet/

Fuel cells have lost. Get over it.

If they've lost, then anything you or I say makes not a whit of difference. FTM matter nothing that we say will make a whit of difference to the manufacturers and people making purchasing decisions in any case. And I have nothing to get over, because as I've pointed out numerous times to you and others, I don't care which ZEV tech succeeds, only that at least one does.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:14 am

WetEV wrote:https://qz.com/1169690/shenzhen-in-china-has-16359-electric-buses-more-than-americas-biggest-citiess-conventional-bus-fleet/
Great video! Thanks!

We can cross off one more "issue" with BEVs: refueling very large fleets of BEVs with electricity CAN and IS done TODAY.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
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smkettner
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Re: Battery-electric bus discussion

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:38 pm

https://www.shuttle.uci.edu/electric-bus-update/ BYD EV buses delayed but in service soon

https://www.shuttle.uci.edu/w-line-fuel-cell-bus-update/ Problems with Fuel cell bus

https://www.shuttle.uci.edu/route-cancellation-notice-w-line/ Fuel cell bus route cancelled due to expiration of funding.

Looks like the battery electric bus is winning the battle at University California Irvine.
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