resurgence in small, cheap EVs?

I just got to thinking today. Over the years several companies have tried to produce small EVs that are small and cheap, sort of like the Ford Th!nk. Most went out of business. So I just got to thinking, I wonder if the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt will change all of that. It will raise awareness, plus give us an infrastructure of charging stations. I wonder if somebody might built a little EV with small battery pack (maybe 30 to 40 miles range) and sell it for around $10,000. Heck, they might even be able to do it using traditional lead-acid batteries. If there are tons of charging stations around, the lower range would work for tons of people.

No Lead!!!!!!!!

I have a Zap Xebra (which, of course, they're not making anymore). I love it. BUT, with these kinds of cars comes a lot of tinkering and very few frills. I think that as "real" EVs come down in price over the next year or two, you'll start seeing the "little cars" but not really like you're thinking. The Xebras and Gems and Zenns are just too limited in practicality to be widely accepted.

Consider the old Geo Metro, the super-cheap little economy car that was essentially a "throw it away after 60k miles and buy a new one" model. They were very popular. I think the same thing will happen with EVs, but rather than a 40 mile range lead-acid low/medium speed vehicle, it will be a 80-100 mile range small car with a lithium pack. Basically a sub-compact version of the Leaf, with less power but the same range, for the $12k-$15k buyer.

But, in order to have that happen, the technology needs to be proven (to the masses, not us early-adopters) and the battery prices need to come down. It will happen, and quite quickly, I hope, but we're just not there yet. Almost, though, look at some of the EVs that are in the works.

I agree with palmermd. Lead-acid is [thankfully] on its way out. Other battery technologies are dropping in price to the point where it just doesn't make sense to deal with lead anymore. I'll be keeping my Xebra for a few more years, but if I have to replace the pack again it will either be with lithium or I'll just replace the whole car instead.

blorg said:

I think the same thing will happen with EVs, but rather than a 40 mile range lead-acid low/medium speed vehicle, it will be a 80-100 mile range small car with a lithium pack. Basically a sub-compact version of the Leaf, with less power but the same range, for the $12k-$15k buyer.

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A big barrier for that market is going to be at home charging. L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car. The L2 installs are going to have to get rolled into the financing somehow.

L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car. The L2 installs are going to have to get rolled into the financing somehow.

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Yeah, but what about a 30-40 mile car? For example, from what I hear most people buying the Chevy Volt and the Toyota Prius PHV will not be getting a L2 charger. After all, it doesn't take that long to charge the smaller battery pack.

I had a Zenn and it was simply too limited for mainstream.
What I think will work is small 2 seated goes 50 les up to 60 mph. If my Zenn would have done that I would not be driving a Leaf.

That market o think would explode at $16-20,000.

Don't really think we could get a enough quality at a lower price

adric22 said:

L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car. The L2 installs are going to have to get rolled into the financing somehow.

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Yeah, but what about a 30-40 mile car? For example, from what I hear most people buying the Chevy Volt and the Toyota Prius PHV will not be getting a L2 charger. After all, it doesn't take that long to charge the smaller battery pack.

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Sure, you could use L1 for a 40 mile car.

How about a 70-90 mile range car that seats 5 for $15,000-18,000?

That's what I'd expect the resale value to be for a 2011 LEAF SL with QC in excellent condition, in 3 years, when the leases expire on current deliveries.

Smaller, shorter-range cars, with fewer features, better have a really nice "new car smell", to compete.

I for one, would like to see inexpensive EV conversion kits based around popular cars that your typical shade-tree mechanic could install...

Go buy a clunker with a dead engine or transmission for a couple grand, buy a conversion kit for $8k or so and for $10k have a decent EV that will go 70 miles or so.

davewill said:

A big barrier for that market is going to be at home charging. L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car.

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Sure it will. rawhog just reported on another thread that he's commuting 85 miles a day and charging only on L1. The math is simple. 85 miles is maybe two hours of driving. That leaves 22 hours per day to charge. All you really need is 120v access everywhere you park.

Personally I would love to have a small, cheap EV, so long as small doesn't mean tiny, like a Think. Small like a Geo would be perfect for me. And, strangely enough, I'd rather have cheap. Navigation? I'll never use it. Bluetooth? My cell phone doesn't even support it. Power windows, power doors, power mirrors? Who needs them. Backup camera? My wife's Prius has it, and I never look at it. When I'm backing up I want to turn and watch directly where I'm going.

Ray

planet4ever said:

davewill said:

A big barrier for that market is going to be at home charging. L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car.

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Sure it will. rawhog just reported on another thread that he's commuting 85 miles a day and charging only on L1. The math is simple. 85 miles is maybe two hours of driving. That leaves 22 hours per day to charge. All you really need is 120v access everywhere you park.

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I rest my case.

davewill said:

planet4ever said:

davewill said:

A big barrier for that market is going to be at home charging. L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car.

Click to expand...

Sure it will. rawhog just reported on another thread that he's commuting 85 miles a day and charging only on L1. The math is simple. 85 miles is maybe two hours of driving. That leaves 22 hours per day to charge. All you really need is 120v access everywhere you park.

Click to expand...

I rest my case.

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I disagree, I think L1 charging is perfectly adequate for most people. Sure, on those times that you do take a long drive and deplete the pack most of the way you'll need a longer recharge, but not many people do that on a super regular basis. As long as a 11-hour charge is enough to get you where you need to go, you're fine, right? I get home about 6:30, leave in the morning around 7:30. That's 11 hours of charging, more if I can plug in other places. Also consider that a smaller (i.e. lighter) vehicle doesn't need quite as much charge to go the same distance as a larger/heavier car.

For our needs, L1 would actually be completely adequate. My plan for the Leaf (after I learned what AV was going to charge for the EVSE) was to just use L1. If I didn't get the free Blink from all those nice taxpayers out there, that's the route I would have gone and I don't really think it would make a difference for us. So far my Blink is working OK (just reboots, but charges) but if that gets worse, I'll drop to L1 without any concerns.

I think a 40-mile car is too limited in the minds of the general public to really catch on. I mean, look at people that are so nervous about 100 miles! And only a small percentage of people really need more than that 100 mile range. It's all about perception, and I just don't think a 40-mile car will get over the perception-hump. A true 100-mile car, though, priced right, could be a big seller to the masses I think. The price just isn't low enough yet to hit that golden spot. Plus people are still wary of EVs in general, so more need to get out on the road so that people get used to them.

blorg said:

I disagree, I think L1 charging is perfectly adequate for most people. Sure, on those times that you do take a long drive and deplete the pack most of the way you'll need a longer recharge, but not many people do that on a super regular basis. As long as a 11-hour charge is enough to get you where you need to go, you're fine, right? I get home about 6:30, leave in the morning around 7:30. That's 11 hours of charging, more if I can plug in other places.

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If you're only getting 11 hours a night, you're right back to having a 40-50 mile car...at a 80-100 mile price...and what about those times you want to stay out late? Do you say, "Sorry, I have to leave, my EV has to go to bed?" I don't see the appeal. I'm expecting all the people for whom "L1 will be just fine", to be getting L2 as soon as reality starts biting (and the prices come down some). There will be some that get to charge at work who will be able to skate by, but the rest...well, we will see, I suppose.

davewill said:

blorg said:

I disagree, I think L1 charging is perfectly adequate for most people. Sure, on those times that you do take a long drive and deplete the pack most of the way you'll need a longer recharge, but not many people do that on a super regular basis. As long as a 11-hour charge is enough to get you where you need to go, you're fine, right? I get home about 6:30, leave in the morning around 7:30. That's 11 hours of charging, more if I can plug in other places.

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If you're only getting 11 hours a night, you're right back to having a 40-50 mile car...at a 80-100 mile price. I don't see the appeal. I'm expecting all the people for whom "L1 will be just fine", to be getting L2 as soon as reality starts biting (and the prices come down some). There will be some that get to charge at work who will be able to skate by, but the rest...well, we will see, I suppose.

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My point is that most of the time you're not using the full 80-100 mile range, but on the occasional day that you do you should be fine.

Example: Normally commute 30 miles total per day, charge at night, every morning you have 100% charge. Then one day you need to go 80 miles. Next morning, you might not have 100% range, but still have enough to do your normal 30 mile day. Over the next couple nights, you're back up to 100% no problem.

Or this:
Weekdays, commute 30 miles per day, weekends do 120 miles but with opportunity charging throughout the day and a longer night-time charge.

I still don't see it as a big deal. Would L2 be more convenient? Sure. And when prices come down and they're easier to install, sweet, everyone will get them. But just because you're doing L1 charging doesn't mean that a 40 mile car is as useful as a 100 mile car.

What about this: http://evi-usa.com/PRODUCTS/Vehicles/LightDutyVehicle.aspx

Yes, it's a NEV but with the lithium phosphate batteries they quote a range of 50 miles.

DOE testing indicates up to 83 miles:http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/nev/evi2010.pdf

Does anybody know much about this vehicle? I can't seem to find out much except what is on the EVI website. Is this vehicle really being produced and sold? Or is this another one of those famous "vaporware" EV's?

-Reddy

davewill said:

planet4ever said:

davewill said:

A big barrier for that market is going to be at home charging. L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car.

Click to expand...

Sure it will. rawhog just reported on another thread that he's commuting 85 miles a day and charging only on L1. The math is simple. 85 miles is maybe two hours of driving. That leaves 22 hours per day to charge. All you really need is 120v access everywhere you park.

Click to expand...

I rest my case.

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Probably good to rest it as it was blown out of the water anyway.

I'm in my third year of operating an EV with 60 miles of range and using L1 charging. I've only charged 'out in the world' one time - and that was during the first few months of ownership when I was still exploring the limits. Later this summer I'll add my vote to the 'daily use while only using L1' score card.

AndyH said:

davewill said:

I rest my case.

Click to expand...

Probably good to rest it as it was blown out of the water anyway.

I'm in my third year of operating an EV with 60 miles of range and using L1 charging. I've only charged 'out in the world' one time - and that was during the first few months of ownership when I was still exploring the limits. Later this summer I'll add my vote to the 'daily use while only using L1' score card.

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Different case. If you expect 80-100 miles, I maintain L1 won't do it. As I said, we're going to find out...there are a lot of people on here trying to make it on L1...In a year or so, we'll find out whether they change their tune or not.

davewill said:

A big barrier for that market is going to be at home charging. L1 won't cut it for a 80-100 mile car. The L2 installs are going to have to get rolled into the financing somehow.

Click to expand...

L1 and L2 EVSE are just a big rip-off now, cost will come down dramatically.. all you need to do is pay (or do it yourself) an electrician $200 to put a 240V socket somewhere near the car.. if you you have an electric dryer in your garage you are set.

Dont ever forget that most people drive less than 40 miles a day. Repeat it to yourself now!

I have 3100 miles in 12 weeks and 2 days of ownership. I average charging a bit less than 6 days a week so I go 1-2 a week not charging at all. I only use 120 and don't seem to have a problem with managing the range.

Right now I suffered thru driving the Prius today to put in 38.00 of gas. My SO will get home and it will take more than 15 hours to recharge what she used but it will only get around 10-12 hours of charge before we start using it tomorrow.

I will probably put 25-40 les on it doing random stuff and I will plug it in here and there but by friday morning I could be back at full charge without missing anything I needed to do tomorrow.

So ya it can work with a bit of management

A practical solution would be a small econobox type BEV, gasoline powered ones usually go for about $12k (with AC) in the US. Many people do buy them.. sub-compact class.

I could live with a Mitsubishi iMiev, very small car (kei class) but has lots of room, only uses a 16kwh pack and it has 100 miles of range (LA-4 cycle).. at a low price of $12k it would be very popular.. but obviously its a lot more than that.

An econobox consumes about 40 gallons of gasoline a month, at $5 a gallon that works out to $200 a month.. Renault is leasing 20kwh packs for about $135 a month so its not too expensive and will likely improve. So lease a battery pack for a $12k econobox type BEV and that pretty much is what you are looking for.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/09/renault-introduces-kangoo-express-ze-electric-lcv-at-20000.html