jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:39 am

Zythryn wrote:The implementation of a passive battery management system is questionable, at best.
2011-2012 Leafs in warm climates had horrible results. Even in cold climates, they haven’t been very good.

When the 2011s came out Nissan SAID the batteries had undergone extensive testing in hot weather environments and would be fine.
That turned out not to be the case.

The ‘warm weather’ batteries, from reports, seem to have done better, but still not as good as batteries with active battery management systems.

From what I have heard, the 2019 Leaf will have a larger battery and an active battery management system.
I don’t see how people can argue for a passive system. Unless they believe in 3-5 year disposable cars.


It’s far more likely that chemistry is the really important factor. Even ‘Lizard’ Leaf packs contained LMO spinel batteries. Magnesium batteries tend to have terrible lifespans. AESC claimed to have solved the heat issue with a new electrolytic solution, but it turned out not to work so well.

For the 2018 Leaf, Nissan went so far as to eat a ton of money to get out of an agreement with NEC and fit the car with NMC packs. This should lead to far higher longevity. It remains to be seen whether this chemistry will be as good as the NCA chemistry used in Tesla cars (I’m gonna say probably not...), but Tesla trusts NMC enough to put them in Power Walls, so I have high hopes.

The driving performance and charging speed of the new Leaf just isn’t enough to warrant a TMS. I can drive like a maniac through the mountains and then go charge at 50kW for 40 minutes in 25C weather with the sun beating down and battery temps don’t even hit the halfway mark. We’ll see how it does in summer when outdoor temperatures are 40C or so, but I’m thinking it will do well.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12976
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:57 am

Zythryn wrote:The implementation of a passive battery management system is questionable, at best.
2011-2012 Leafs in warm climates had horrible results. Even in cold climates, they haven’t been very good.

When the 2011s came out Nissan SAID the batteries had undergone extensive testing in hot weather environments and would be fine.
That turned out not to be the case.


The ‘warm weather’ batteries, from reports, seem to have done better, but still not as good as batteries with active battery management systems.

From what I have heard, the 2019 Leaf will have a larger battery and an active battery management system.
I don’t see how people can argue for a passive system. Unless they believe in 3-5 year disposable cars.


They did do the test but the reality is they didn't know what was important. Its not "just" heat or High SOC. It is heat+High SOC+ Time.

They baked the pack at 140º 24/7 for a month cycling it over and over and the results were good.

BUT the time spent at high SOC was momentary (realize the temperature was a CONSTANT 140º) due to the 20 min discharge cycle (imagine full throttle up the Grapevine) and 60 min recharge cycle.

Now we don't see 140º much. But the degradation curve actually starts well below what we consider to be warm. So 100% at 80º isn't good. Every SECOND hurts. Death by a million tiny cuts if you will but Death is unavoidable in those circumstances.


But that is not how we treated the packs. We took advantage of all the free level 2 charging that was ABUNDANT in the early days and we charged very slowly and relatively coolly to full in the middle of the day in a wide open parking lot thinking we were getting over cause we got $1.65 of free electricity at the expense of our $6500 battery pack.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

powersurge
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:13 am

Since reading these posts, I have changed in my charging behavior...

I used to come home in the evenings from work, and plug the car in for the next day... So it would stay 100% charged overnight.

Now, I come home and leave the car parked overnight at about 50%. When I wake up in the morning, I plug in the car for 1 1/2 hours before I go to work.. I leave for work at 95-100%. very low time at high SOC. I hope this makes a good result....

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12976
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:31 am

powersurge wrote:Since reading these posts, I have changed in my charging behavior...

I used to come home in the evenings from work, and plug the car in for the next day... So it would stay 100% charged overnight.

Now, I come home and leave the car parked overnight at about 50%. When I wake up in the morning, I plug in the car for 1 1/2 hours before I go to work.. I leave for work at 95-100%. very low time at high SOC. I hope this makes a good result....


Definitely a better way to go as long as that 50% is enough to cover any possible unexpected need.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:07 am

powersurge wrote:Now, I come home and leave the car parked overnight at about 50%. When I wake up in the morning, I plug in the car for 1 1/2 hours before I go to work.. I leave for work at 95-100%. very low time at high SOC. I hope this makes a good result....

Or just set the timer; then you will not have to fuss around with plugging in each morning.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

SageBrush
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:13 am

Zythryn wrote:I don’t see how people can argue for a passive system. Unless they believe in 3-5 year disposable cars.

Eight years. The warranty says so.

Half joking aside, the crappy battery is much more a problem with depreciation than actually towing the car to a dumpster. After all, 50 miles is still useful to someone for another year or two.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

dm33
Posts: 687
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 4:43 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:16 am

I haven't read through the whole thread.

But clearly the biggest issue with the comparison is that the $35k SR Model 3 does not exist today and its not clear when it will exist, if ever, nor what it will actually contain. Tesla may continue to try and de-content as they delay it.

A year or two down the road when the Model 3 SR is available the LEAF will be available with 200+ mile range and price will likely drop on lower ranger version.

powersurge
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:13 am

+1

Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.

I hope I am wrong, but when a touted product that seems too good to be true... Does not appear, I get worried, like Ponzi schemes...

SageBrush
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:18 pm

powersurge wrote:Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.


Aren't you the genius that proclaimed with the confidence that comes from abject ignorance that the Model 3 would never see the light of day ?

Check out February, a month that Tesla is still struggling with the ramp-up:

Image

Enjoy the graph; this is the closest the LEAF will get to the Model 3.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:34 am

SageBrush wrote:
powersurge wrote:Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.


Aren't you the genius that proclaimed with the confidence that comes from abject ignorance that the Model 3 would never see the light of day ?

Check out February, a month that Tesla is still struggling with the ramp-up:

Image

Enjoy the graph; this is the closest the LEAF will get to the Model 3.


Yeah... no one here is as emotionally invested in this issue as you are, so I don’t think that’s going to bother anyone.

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