Used 2015 vs 2016?

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leaftryer

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
67
Location
Sacramento
What's a better used car value?

Obviously, 2015s can be purchased for less than 2016s and they have an advantage that you can find 2015 SVs with the LED headlight package with automatic headlamps. If you want automatic headlamps on a 2016, you have no choice but to get an SL.
I thought of just leaving the lights on day and night on a 2016 SV (assuming the lights at least turn off automatically), but the standard headlamps draw much more power than LEDs so it would be another battery drain range shortner.
2015s also have the Lizard battery. Do only 2016s have the 8 year degredation warranty?.
So, the only advantage of a 2016 is getting the bigger battery, but that is a major advantage and the extra 15-20 miles range would make using the car less stressful and make it last longer because I wouldn't drain the batter below 20% as often with the larger battery.

I don't like black leather seats in the summer. I wouldn't mind light gray or beige leather as much, but black leather would be the only choice available if I get a 2016 SL. It will probably be OK if I can remotely cool the vehicle interior while it isn't charging. Can NissanConnect turn on the a/c remotely via a smartphone app while the car isn't connected to a charging station? Is it the same on both 2015s and 2016s?

There are very few used 2016s available now and I see 3 out of 4 used 2015s and 2016s listed for sale online are base S models.
I think if I wait another 6 months, the selection use used 2016s will be much better since 24 month lease returns on 2016s should be hitting dealer lots in large numbers starting around January.
 
Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

I wouldn't be concerned about the lack of automatic headlights. I also wouldn't be concerned about headlight power consumption. That is minimal compared to what's needed to propel the car. However, the halogen headlights are MUCH worse than the LEDs. (I leased a car w/QC + LED headlight package. My current one doesn't have that.)

leaftryer said:
2015s also have the Lizard battery. Do only 2016s have the 8 year degredation warranty?.
Only the 30 kWh models of the 2016 (SV, SL and quietly introduced near the end "S 30" (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price)) have the 8 year/100K mile degradation warranty. 24 kWh Leafs only have the 5 year/60K degradation warranty.

leaftryer said:
So, the only advantage of a 2016 is getting the bigger battery, but that is a major advantage and the extra 15-20 miles range would make using the car less stressful and make it last longer because I wouldn't drain the batter below 20% as often with the larger battery.
For whatever reason, the 30 kWh batteries don't seem to be holding up well in terms of capacity loss: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606.

Assuming Nissan didn't screw with the % needed to trigger the 4th capacity bar going away, that coupled w/the 8 year/100K capacity warranty might be a good thing. You might have a good chance of getting a free replacement or two.
leaftryer said:
I don't like black leather seats in the summer. I wouldn't mind light gray or beige leather as much, but black leather would be the only choice available if I get a 2016 SL.
Not specific to '16 SL. Ever since '13 SL, all SL from that point on only came in black leather. Prior to model year '13, leather and dark interiors were not available.
leaftryer said:
It will probably be OK if I can remotely cool the vehicle interior while it isn't charging. Can NissanConnect turn on the a/c remotely via a smartphone app while the car isn't connected to a charging station? Is it the same on both 2015s and 2016s?
Yes.
 
Too bad the degradation problem still isn't really solved. At least the 30kWh warranty lets you get a replacement after it drops under 70% in less than 8 years, but I would rather the battery just stay over 90% long term. 70% of a 100 mile range (that's really more like less than 80 miles if you drive it like a normal car on the highway and don't turn off the A/C and heat to squeeze out extras miles while you sweat or shiver in discomfort) gets restrictive really fast.
Since nobody wants the stress of driving the car down to the last few miles of range (and it's bad for the battery anyway), you can cut another 10 miles off of that number. 70% of 80 miles is 56 miles of which I would really only want to actually use 46 to not have range anxiety.

Even before any degradation starts, I would only expect around 80 miles on maximum highway range out of the 30kwh battery of which I would want to use under 70 to have a comfortable cushion when I get home. So, with 30kwh battery I would need to stay within 35 miles of home before degradation and 23 miles from home after degradation or I would have to go out of my way and wait around to use public charging stations to make it back home comfortably.
For this, dealers want $18 to $20K for used 2016 SVs and SLs. Still seems like too much for such a limited range vehicle.
Price drops quite a bit when looking at 2014 and 2015s (need at least a 2015 to be guaranteed a lizard battery), but then I would only have the choice of older 24Khw batteries that are almost surely starting to lose range.
 
leaftryer said:
Too bad the degradation problem still isn't really solved. At least the 30kWh warranty lets you get a replacement after it drops under 70% in less than 8 years,
We have no idea if it is still roughly 70% remaining == 4 bars gone. It might be a higher or lower % remaining. All we know is in the warranty booklet (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/LEAF/2016/2016-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf) has verbiage about them warrantying it to be at or above 9 bars within the warranty period.

I don't think the degradation problem will ever be solved. Li-ion batteries degrade but there are numerous factors (e.g. calendar loss, temperature, how much cycling, etc.)

EPA range rating of 30 kWh Leafs is 107 miles. Besides Teslas and the 238-mile Bolt, there are some other EVs w/a bit over 107 miles of range on the EPA test. And, next gen Leaf is being announced in September.
 
cwerdna said:
leaftryer said:
Too bad the degradation problem still isn't really solved. At least the 30kWh warranty lets you get a replacement after it drops under 70% in less than 8 years,
We have no idea if it is still roughly 70% remaining == 4 bars gone. It might be a higher or lower % remaining. All we know is in the warranty booklet (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/LEAF/2016/2016-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf) has verbiage about them warrantying it to be at or above 9 bars within the warranty period.

I don't think the degradation problem will ever be solved. Li-ion batteries degrade but there are numerous factors (e.g. calendar loss, temperature, how much cycling, etc.)

EPA range rating of 30 kWh Leafs is 107 miles. Besides Teslas and the 238-mile Bolt, there are some other EVs w/a bit over 107 miles of range on the EPA test. And, next gen Leaf is being announced in September.

Yes, I know the battery has to degrade some amount as they are used. All batteries lose capacity over time including the batteries in other EVs.
The issue is that it seems the Leaf batteries are degrading too much too fast compared to other EV batteries of similar age and number of charge cycles. Bigger batteries like the ones in the Bolt will also have fewer charge cycles when driven the same amount as a Leaf.
The Bolt has it's own issues such as really bad front seats, plus there aren't many used ones on the market.
 
leaftryer said:
The issue is that it seems the Leaf batteries are degrading too much too fast compared to other EV batteries of similar age and number of charge cycles.
Well, the biggest factor is climate. As I pointed to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=499086#p499086, is the best I know of, at 1st capacity bar gone on a '13 at 92.7K miles.

The opposite is http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 for someone in Phoenix. My used '13 Leaf that I bought in July 2015 was built the same month as that guy, 5/13. I still have all 12 bars but with SOH between 85 and 86% and Hx seemingly around 83.xx and 84.xx%, I'm getting real close to losing a bar now at 46K miles. I only wish my climate were as mild as the 1st guy.

I don't know what's going on w/the 30 kWh early capacity losses. Not sure if there's an inherent problem or some folks have defective batteries or only ones built within a certain time range have that issue.
 
leaftryer said:
I thought of just leaving the lights on day and night on a 2016 SV (assuming the lights at least turn off automatically), but the standard headlamps draw much more power than LEDs so it would be another battery drain range shortner.

Unless things changed since my 2012 Leaf, the non-auto headlights do not shut off when you turn the car off. When you open the door, you will get a chime if you left the lights on.
 
RonDawg said:
leaftryer said:
I thought of just leaving the lights on day and night on a 2016 SV (assuming the lights at least turn off automatically), but the standard headlamps draw much more power than LEDs so it would be another battery drain range shortner.

Unless things changed since my 2012 Leaf, the non-auto headlights do not shut off when you turn the car off. When you open the door, you will get a chime if you left the lights on.

Too bad.
Is there any reason an aftermarket automatic headlamp switch can't be added to an SV or is the wiring for the lights non-standard in a way to make installing something like the kit below not work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA1d-QEwCVs
 
cwerdna said:
leaftryer said:
The issue is that it seems the Leaf batteries are degrading too much too fast compared to other EV batteries of similar age and number of charge cycles.
Well, the biggest factor is climate. As I pointed to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=499086#p499086, is the best I know of, at 1st capacity bar gone on a '13 at 92.7K miles.

The opposite is http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 for someone in Phoenix. My used '13 Leaf that I bought in July 2015 was built the same month as that guy, 5/13. I still have all 12 bars but with SOH between 85 and 86% and Hx seemingly around 83.xx and 84.xx%, I'm getting real close to losing a bar now at 46K miles. I only wish my climate were as mild as the 1st guy.

I don't know what's going on w/the 30 kWh early capacity losses. Not sure if there's an inherent problem or some folks have defective batteries or only ones built within a certain time range have that issue.

Is driving and parking the vehicle in the sun on very hot days a big problem for battery degredation or is it just a problem to charge the battery while it's very hot?
We get very hot and sunny summer days where I live and work, but I would normally be charging the battery during early morning hours after the battery cooled for several hours.
Even on the hottest days of the year where it may be 110 degrees at 4 or 5 PM and the car would be parked in the sun at work, I think the car would normally be only charging at about 3AM when the garage probably cooled to less than 90 degrees and the car would have been parked with battery cooling down for at least 6 hours.
 
You can ignore air temp and focus on pack temp. The air temp certainly affects the pack's temperature, but there is a considerable lag between them. IOW, parking in the hot sun will warm the pack, but not instantly.
 
leaftryer said:
Is driving and parking the vehicle in the sun on very hot days a big problem for battery degredation or is it just a problem to charge the battery while it's very hot?
We get very hot and sunny summer days where I live and work, but I would normally be charging the battery during early morning hours after the battery cooled for several hours.
Even on the hottest days of the year where it may be 110 degrees at 4 or 5 PM and the car would be parked in the sun at work, I think the car would normally be only charging at about 3AM when the garage probably cooled to less than 90 degrees and the car would have been parked with battery cooling down for at least 6 hours.
Is there a reason why you haven't updated your location as requested? I can only guess Vegas from a post you made years ago.

The high pack temperature is likely big the issue but high SoC coupled w/high temps is even worse. L1 and L2 charging it makes it heat up slightly. Those are crazy temps. I've posted comments about Vegas and degradation before many times (e.g. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19180&p=412699&hilit=vegas#p412699 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19906&p=426070&hilit=vegas#p426070).

Table 3 http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries has an example for a li-ion variant that may/may not be like the Leaf's.

Again, see my earlier post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=499663#p499663 contrasting crazy hot Phoenix vs. mild Pacific NW.

GerryAZ in Phoenix has commented on his '15 lizard pack vs. '11 at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24209&p=499021&hilit=bars#p499021. I don't follow his charging habits. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior is supposedly the table of what each bar represents.

As I mentioned, it seems like the 30 kWh packs are not holding up well at all. I don't follow closely but from my quick observations and anecdotal reports I hear, they seem to be doing much worse than '15 lizard packs and maybe even worse than 4/2013+ '13 packs.

The pack has a lot of thermal mass and it takes awhile for it to reach/adjust to ambient temp. Your pack temps will likely be crazy high from parking outside at work in the sun at 110 F. To cool to "less than 90" probably means the pack won't even get down to 90 F before the cycle starts again.

To help preserve my battery on hotter days (above 85 F or so) at work, I try to find spots in the slightly underground section of work's parking garage where it sometimes doesn't even rise to 70 F down there on hot days. If they're full, I park at a far away building's underground garage and charge there. It tends to stay below 80 F there, even if it's 95+ outside. I can go there to grab my car at 5 pm and find the pack temp is below 80 F.

When I get home, I leave my car parked outside my garage for many hours before driving it in. It's cooler outside (e.g. in summer, it could get down to say high 50s or mid-60s) than my garage. It's nowhere near enough time to get the pack to reach ambient temp though.

If I wanted it to cool down further, it'd be best to leave it out overnight but I don't wish to do that work days as it might give clues to burglars as to when I leave for work. My house was broken into a few years ago.
 
leaftryer said:
Even on the hottest days of the year where it may be 110 degrees at 4 or 5 PM and the car would be parked in the sun at work, I think the car would normally be only charging at about 3AM when the garage probably cooled to less than 90 degrees and the car would have been parked with battery cooling down for at least 6 hours.
Apparently a good rule of thumb is that degradation is proportional to average annual ambient temperature.
I personally would not buy a LEAF for a climate that has 110F temperatures.

Oh, and by the way, two of the worse things you can do to a LEAF battery: One is to run A/C while the car is stationary. You don't benefit from the cooling that occurs with the car in motion. The other is charging the LEAF in a hot closed garage.
 
BTW, OP, you never really did answer: What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

You've thrown around some numbers but I'm not clear what your actual needs are and charging situation at work, if any, even if it's only 120 volts.

I can't really comment on your numbers since it depends mainly on how fast you drive. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4295 (unfortunately, all the images are broken so you'll probably need to get the PDFs). I'm not particularly concerned about running the battery low being "bad" for it. However, if you ride around that close to the edge, eventually, you won't be able to make it due to degradation unless you slow down. And, that can only go so far.

My gut feel is that you should go for a 30 kWh '16+ and hope that Nissan's down to 8 bars still == ~70% remaining capacity. If the 30 kWh batteries are in fact crap, you'll probably get 1 to 3 free replacements thanks to its longer capacity warranty. A '15 with its "lizard battery" may not degrade enough for you to receive any replacement under its shorter capacity warranty.

The temps you describe are NOT kind to Leaf's batteries which have no thermal management.
 
cwerdna said:
BTW, OP, you never really did answer: What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

You've thrown around some numbers but I'm not clear what your actual needs are and charging situation at work, if any, even if it's only 120 volts.

I can't really comment on your numbers since it depends mainly on how fast you drive. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4295 (unfortunately, all the images are broken so you'll probably need to get the PDFs). I'm not particularly concerned about running the battery low being "bad" for it. However, if you ride around that close to the edge, eventually, you won't be able to make it due to degradation unless you slow down. And, that can only go so far.

My gut feel is that you should go for a 30 kWh '16+ and hope that Nissan's down to 8 bars still == ~70% remaining capacity. If the 30 kWh batteries are in fact crap, you'll probably get 1 to 3 free replacements thanks to its longer capacity warranty. A '15 with its "lizard battery" may not degrade enough for you to receive any replacement under its shorter capacity warranty.

The temps you describe are NOT kind to Leaf's batteries which have no thermal management.

110 is not normal, but it's possible on "hottest days of the year." Maybe 5 days of the year would be that hot
A "typical" summer day is 90-95 degrees max, but there are always several days over 100 every year.
I would be driving about 11 miles to work (5 miles on highway and 6 miles on surface street), another 6 miles during lunch and then 11 miles back home. So, the normal daily commute would be about 28 miles with 12 miles of it on the highway with a/c or heat on the whole way most of the year. Occasionally, I would need to go home for lunch for some reason and would then up commuting at least 44 miles on those days.
It would rarely be over 70 degrees in the morning on the way to work even on the hottest days of the year, but it would be 90-100+ for the drive home. Then the car would usually sit cooling for hours before charging,

I cannot charge at work, so I would always be charging at home in a covered garage during late night and early morning hours.
So, I would never be charging the battery during the hottest part of the day and the car would likely be cooling in the shaded garage for several hours before the charging time kicked in during the night.
 
Oh, and by the way, two of the worse things you can do to a LEAF battery: One is to run A/C while the car is stationary. You don't benefit from the cooling that occurs with the car in motion.

I think that this would become an issue only if the car were stationary for a long period of time - more than half an hour - and if there were no breeze.
 
OP: Thanks for updating your location. Off the top of my head, Sacramento area is pretty hot but not as bad as Vegas nor Phoenix.

Food for thought:
For a 30 kWh car: 107 EPA miles * 0.7 = 74. 9 miles - This assumes that 4 bars gone still == about 70% remaining capacity
For a 24 kWh car: 84 EPA miles * 0.85 = 71.4 miles - This assumes that 1 capacity bar done == 15% loss.

So, a 30 kWh car down 4 bars should still have a bit more range than a 24 kWh that's 1 bar down.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Oh, and by the way, two of the worse things you can do to a LEAF battery: One is to run A/C while the car is stationary. You don't benefit from the cooling that occurs with the car in motion.

I think that this would become an issue only if the car were stationary for a long period of time - more than half an hour - and if there were no breeze.

On hot days, before I start my commute home, I would want to remotely cool down the cabin for 10 minutes as it sits in uncovered employee parking.
 
So what is hot. 7 bars, 8 bars, 9 bars. I have never seen 9 bars but occasionally seen 8. 7 is reasonably common on hot summer days but 6 seems to be the norm. What would be considered as healthy? Does anybody ever see it get to the red?

Thanks in advance.

John.
 
There isn't a consensus, but many of us think that 7 bars is the beginning of "too hot." The red zone is more like the idiot light warning that tells you your car's ICE is already overheated and likely blowing steam.
 
This guy got his real hot. :)
https://web.archive.org/web/20160903061340/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22134

TonyWilliams didn't get it quite as hot from 3:12 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqd9qbvBoME.
 
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