PG&E Baseline = Scam ?

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BlueSL

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
261
OK, so the title of this thread is a little inflammatory.

I just got off the phone with the PG&E EV help line, which explained to me that my "baseline" is derived from (a) the climatological characteristics of where I live, plus (b) whether or not I have an all-electric house.

So, for example, if I lived where air conditioning was pretty much mandatory, I would get a higher summer baseline. The same would be true if I heated my house with an electric furnace. But if I own an EV, and am using an extra 750 KW's per month not sending energy dollars to the Middle East, I get no baseline increase. Instead, my only options are (a) invest gobs in solar (not really an option for me given trees and the side-hill location of my house) or (b) a second meter and TOU rates (also a substantial investment).

Electric heat is not something that should be incentivized. Electric vehicles are. Why not just create a different/increased baseline for EV households?
 
Since you are a "captive" customer, your PU has no real incentive to make anything easy for you, or even reasonable.

If you had even two choices, things MIGHT be different.

I think that there is no good reason for each PU in CA to have different, complex, hard-to-understand tariffs. The CA PUC should be active in making things reasonable for the end users.

Or, do some members of the PUC just take "contributions" from some of the many different PUs?
 
I completely agree. I was told the same thing along with I could get a higher baseline if I had asthma or something with a note from the doctor. But you do not get extra baseline for an EV. It is a scam. Anyway, I decided a second meter was the best option.
 
SCE's baseline is calculated using the same criteria. Consider that these rules were developed at a time when EVs were largely nonexistent. But then again, certainly you'd be eligible for the medical baseline allocation on the grounds that the air pollution from gasoline powered vehicles is making you sick so you have to switch to an EV :mrgreen:
 
johnr said:
SCE's baseline is calculated using the same criteria. Consider that these rules were developed at a time when EVs were largely nonexistent. But then again, certainly you'd be eligible for the medical baseline allocation on the grounds that the air pollution from gasoline powered vehicles is making you sick so you have to switch to an EV :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Yes!! :eek: Now if I can just get my doctor to write a note. :roll:
 
BlueSL said:
I just got off the phone with the PG&E EV help line, which explained to me that my "baseline" is derived from (a) the climatological characteristics of where I live, plus (b) whether or not I have an all-electric house.
Click to expand...
Yup, pretty much been that way as far back as I can remember. I am lucky in that my home is in X while just nearby is T. T is 8.3 kWh per day summer and 9.8 kWh per day winter while X is 12.1 kWh per day summer and 12.6 kWh per day winter. That is a big change just based on what side of the street your house might be on.

Here is a link to the PG&E baseline map http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/PGECZ_90Rev.pdf
and a link to the PG&E info page http://www.pge.com/myhome/customerservice/financialassistance/medicalbaseline/understand/
Long4Leaf said:
But you do not get extra baseline for an EV.
Click to expand...
This is true but you do get tier 1 and tier 2 for the same price on E9 so in effect you are getting extra baseline. You also get tier 4 and tier 5 for the same price as well.

Link to info on the E9 rates http://www.pge.com/about/environment/pge/electricvehicles/fuelrates/index.shtml
Link to current E9 rate schedule http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf
By no means I am saying this could not be better or should not be changed but it is good to have all the facts.
 
Well not exactly. Tier 4 and 5 are the same for E1 as well. Difference between Tier 1 and 2 for E1 is very small .017. The big jump is between 2 and 3 (~.13). When the baseline is increased, both Tier 1 and tier 2 increase giving a larger total before you reach tier 3.
 
I think a letter writing campaign to the PUC and local congress representative is warranted to begin addressing this issue. Does anyone on this forum have experience with this? Perhaps see if there is any interest in local AQMD leadership to get involved?
 
Long4Leaf said:
Well not exactly. Tier 4 and 5 are the same for E1 as well. Difference between Tier 1 and 2 for E1 is very small .017. The big jump is between 2 and 3 (~.13). When the baseline is increased, both Tier 1 and tier 2 increase giving a larger total before you reach tier 3.
Click to expand...
So if I understand you correctly what you want is an increase in baseline on the E1 rate for those that have an electric vehicle?

I am not sure what I said about the E9 rate is not correct.

It does seem you already found a solution and made the choice to get a second meter so I assume you kept your house on E1 and your EVSE on E9b. Not an option for everybody currently I admit even though with the tech today one would think it should be.

I should have also pointed out that the OP did not mention the E9a rate option which is when the whole house is on the TOU meter. This is the option I went with and works well for me mostly because I do not have AC to automatically push me into the higher tiers so it is actually cheaper overall when compared to E1 or E1 with E9b. I admit I am probably the exception and not the rule when it comes to this.
 
You should change the title.

Anyway, look at the contact evchels posted in another thread. You should contact that person to see how best to handle your situation.
 
My point on the baseline is I would have went with E9A rates if the baseline increased with respect to the additional use of an EV and not gone through the expense of installing another meter. But because of a flawed approach to the baseline (IMO), the only way to get an increase in the baseline amount for an EV is to install a second meter.

A concern I did have is PG&E may recognize this in the near future and change it so that the baseline increases with E9A in which case I may not get the pay back I expect.
 
Long4Leaf said:
My point on the baseline is I would have went with E9A rates if the baseline increased with respect to the additional use of an EV and not gone through the expense of installing another meter. But because of a flawed approach to the baseline (IMO), the only way to get an increase in the baseline amount for an EV is to install a second meter.

A concern I did have is PG&E may recognize this in the near future and change it so that the baseline increases with E9A in which case I may not get the pay back I expect.
Click to expand...

I work for SCE, and am somewhat familiar with baseline rules. They are set by state law (and interpreted by the California Public Utilities Commission), and at present the baseline allocation varies only by heating source (electric/gas) and climate zone; allocations are higher for those in colder areas with electric heating. They are based on actual usage, so that a target percentage of total usage in each climate zone is sold at baseline rates.
In short PG&E probably doesn't have the authority to set baseline allocations differently for EV customers.
The 5-tiered rate structure is another artifact of the energy crisis 10 years ago in California, and another post noted the big gap between Tier 2 and Tier 3 rates -- this is due to Tier 1 and 2 rates being artificially capped for a decade while Tier 3-4-5 absorbed all the cost/rate increases.

While I work for Southern California Edison, the opinions expressed here are those of a lowly, prospective Leaf owner, and may not represent the position of SCE :geek:
 
The original poster has it wrong. There is effectively a baseline advantage built in for EV owners. To understand that advantage you have to separate two variables: EV vs. non-EV, and TOU vs. flat rate. The way to do this is to look at E6, the TOU schedule for non-EV. As an example, let's look at the winter off-peak rates, using E9-A, the whole house rate (the one the OP overlooked, that does not require any additional meter):
Code: 
Tier:     1        2      3       4       5
E6:    0.09112 0.10736 0.25777 0.39681 0.46967
E9-A:  0.06186 0.06186 0.13998 0.18172 0.18172
  • E9-A tier 1 and 2 rates are both well below E6 tier 1.
  • E9-A tier 3 through tier 5 rates are all less than E6 tier 3!

But that was the cheapest case. What happens with the most expensive case, summer peak?
Code: 
Tier:     1        2      3       4       5
E6:    0.30142 0.31765 0.46807 0.60711 0.67996
E9-A:  0.30470 0.30470 0.44575 0.55542 0.55542
Not much difference here, is there? But that's because you aren't expected to charge your LEAF between 2 PM and 9 PM on weekdays. So your electric usage for that period should be basically unchanged. I should note that E1 and E9 rates were recently lowered for the highest tiers, and E6 rates have not been changed. Their high tier rates might be lowered in the future.

The summer off-peak rates do show the same pattern as the winter off-peak rates.
Code: 
Tier:     1        2      3       4       5
E6:    0.08700 0.10324 0.25365 0.39269 0.46555
E9-A:  0.05294 0.05294 0.13998 0.18172 0.18172
Yes, I hear you. You are not considering going from E6 to E9 (though in fact I am). The choice between flat and TOU rates is an important one, and going to TOU can cost you unless you make conscious efforts to limit usage during peak periods. The whole point of this post is just to say that on an apples-to-apples comparison, PG&E is in effect giving a significant baseline advantage to EV owners.
 
I am not understanding the fear of the cost for the dedicated meter? Isn't PG&E willing to pick up that cost? SDGE wanted me to install one badly so they paid. It benefits the utility by incentivizing the time of day you charge...
 
Kelangst said:
I am not understanding the fear of the cost for the dedicated meter? Isn't PG&E willing to pick up that cost? SDGE wanted me to install one badly so they paid. It benefits the utility by incentivizing the time of day you charge...
Click to expand...

I just got a quote from a local electrician for installing a 2nd (and separate) meter for my EVSE--$3500 including the permit and stucco repair. It's a little past my pain point. I'm tempted to go an entire year with the entire house on E9a and see how it goes (although my round trip commute will be 66 miles).
 
I just got a quote from a local electrician for installing a 2nd (and separate) meter for my EVSE--$3500 including the permit and stucco repair. It's a little past my pain point. I'm tempted to go an entire year with the entire house on E9a and see how it goes (although my round trip commute will be 66 miles).
Click to expand...

That is insane - mine was the equivalent of under $2500 including the charger and second meter. You are getting ripped off.
 
BlueSL said:
OK, so the title of this thread is a little inflammatory.

I just got off the phone with the PG&E EV help line, which explained to me that my "baseline" is derived from (a) the climatological characteristics of where I live, plus (b) whether or not I have an all-electric house.

So, for example, if I lived where air conditioning was pretty much mandatory, I would get a higher summer baseline. The same would be true if I heated my house with an electric furnace. But if I own an EV, and am using an extra 750 KW's per month not sending energy dollars to the Middle East, I get no baseline increase. Instead, my only options are (a) invest gobs in solar (not really an option for me given trees and the side-hill location of my house) or (b) a second meter and TOU rates (also a substantial investment).

Electric heat is not something that should be incentivized. Electric vehicles are. Why not just create a different/increased baseline for EV households?
Click to expand...

You effectively get a 30% increase on your baseline with E9A ... it's not done that way, but your second tier (100% -130%) gets priced at the same level as your first one. I'm actually really happy with PGE.
 
I live in region T, not more than 1/4 mile from region X -- maybe even just across the street from it (it is a little hard to tell from that map). We installed air conditioning the summer my daughter got heat stroke and we could not cool down our house. It was not an unreasonable decision.

Each person's perspective is colored by how much energy they use at the highest levels. We always hit tier 4. All of my EV charging would have been at no less than Tier 4 and PG&E estimated it was going to cost me $300 monthly. Since my Nissan Altima Hybrid costs me about $100-120 a month in gas, I thought the $180 a month premium to own a plug-in was a bit much from a policy perspective.

If PG&E can adjust baselines for weather, it can do it for electric cars. And it should.
 
Kelangst said:
I just got a quote from a local electrician for installing a 2nd (and separate) meter for my EVSE--$3500 including the permit and stucco repair. It's a little past my pain point. I'm tempted to go an entire year with the entire house on E9a and see how it goes (although my round trip commute will be 66 miles).
Click to expand...

That is insane - mine was the equivalent of under $2500 including the charger and second meter. You are getting ripped off.
Click to expand...

I had about the same quote (an additional $3,500 for the second meter), and that is because for the second meter I would of had to trench about 60 feet, under a fence and under a porch to get to my house at an estimated $2,500-$3,000 plus $500 for the stucco repair. Permit I think was another $200.
 
BlueSL said:
All of my EV charging would have been at no less than Tier 4 and PG&E estimated it was going to cost me $300 monthly. Since my Nissan Altima Hybrid costs me about $100-120 a month in gas, I thought the $180 a month premium to own a plug-in was a bit much from a policy perspective.
Click to expand...
Did PG&E happen to give you the math they used to come to this conclusion? To say that all of your charging would be at no less than tier 4 is not really an accurate statement unless your plan was to somehow stay on E1 and not go to E9A or E9B.

One thing that was mentioned in another thread was that PG&E could certainly offer hooking up a smart meter at the EVSE in series with the rest of the house. PG&E could then easily subtract the usage of the EVSE meter from the main meter to determine how much to charge for the rest of the house. That way pretty much anyone would have the choice to go to the E9B rate for the EVSE and stay on any rate they want for the rest of the house with much smaller up front cost. No idea why this is not yet available for those that are in areas that are already served by smart meters.

Here is a link to a document that mentions series metering:
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4B8FE1E8-6DB1-47BD-BC5D-01CB9A872017/0/PGEAcceleratingtheInstallationofHomeChargingEquipment.pdf
 

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